Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Saturday, July 14, 2012, 19:59 (340 days ago)

For those of you who aren't following me on Facebook, you're missing some great stuff, such as the photos of a crocodile hunting a sea turtle that are among some of the neat stuff I posted today.

http://www.facebook.com/zihuarob - My personal page and if you can't respect my political and social views stay away from this one.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/ZihuaRobs-Servicios-Internet/211799108858154 - My page ONLY about Zihuatanejo and the surrounding region. No politics here.

For those of you who "don't do Facebook", too friggin' bad. :jeer:

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Saturday, July 14, 2012, 20:53 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
edited by Craig Scheiner, Saturday, July 14, 2012, 23:52


For those of you who "don't do Facebook", too friggin' bad. :jeer:

That includes me because of the facebook terms of service. I assume Rob is savvy enough to have read and understood them and he made up his own mind. For those who haven't read them, you give Facebook the non-exclusive copyrights without limitation to everything you post including what you write. That means they can sell your pictures to anyone without asking you or paying you a peso. Those pictures of you with a can of beer in your hand and red eyes? Facebook can use them anywhere, anytime. They can reproduce everything on your page including what you have there about other people, including their pictures and what you wrote, and use it absolutely any way they want. And not just now. Ten years from now; twenty years from now. You are going to love that.

That may not mean much to you, but for Rob, who lives in a tourist destination and takes good photos, he may see his pictures on Trip Adviser, or in an advertisement in a travel magazine and he will not get a peso for their use nor will they have asked him first.

I'm a retired photographer and I just won't tolerate exploitation like that.

Craig

Find me on Facebook

by donna tatom, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 00:27 (340 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

Love your face book.I share a lot of your pictues with my friend's a lot of them have been to Z.and love it too. Gracias keep them coming

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by sue in mexico mo @, Mexico, MO USA, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 08:13 (340 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

I'm glad Rob doesn't feel threatened by facebook policies. I, and many others, enjoy his photos very much! Thanks, Rob!

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 08:17 (340 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

What a BS excuse. The reason you post ANYTHING on the Internet is because you want to share it. You should never post anything you don't want others to see, whether it's text or images. I could do the same thing with anything you post here, but apparently that doesn't stop you. I solve any sharing problems by watermarking my photos, and I doubt FB has or will ever use anything I post in a manner that would bother or offend me. But that's fine, Craig. I really didn't want to "friend" you anyway. :kingtut:

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 09:20 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

My post wasn't about sharing; it was about unintended commercial use. No need for you to take offense.

Craig

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 15:10 (340 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

My post wasn't about sharing; it was about unintended commercial use. No need for you to take offense.

Craig

You overrate yourself. In all the time I've used Facebook not once have I seen anything I've posted used by them other than on pages with Facebook widgets where I chose to allow it. Millions of "artists" and other folks with intellectual priority whose value I dare say surely eclipses yours use Facebook every day apparently without experiencing what you claim is your reason for not using it. You're just being silly and looking for an excuse. No problem.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 16:00 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

My post wasn't about sharing; it was about unintended commercial use. No need for you to take offense.

Craig


You overrate yourself. In all the time I've used Facebook not once have I seen anything I've posted used by them other than on pages with Facebook widgets where I chose to allow it. Millions of "artists" and other folks with intellectual priority whose value I dare say surely eclipses yours use Facebook every day apparently without experiencing what you claim is your reason for not using it. You're just being silly and looking for an excuse. No problem.


I'm glad you have not had a problem. I am sad you don't want me for a friend.

For anyone who is interested, here is why I'm not on Facebook. It's from Consumer Reports.

Craig


Consumer Reports: Facebook privacy problems are on the rise

Consumer Reports released its annual report on Internet privacy and security Thursday, placing Facebook front and center. Issues covered by the influential consumer watchdog group included updates on data leaks, hacks, scams, and the like, while featuring a separate report focusing entirely on Facebook and how the social network deals with privacy, security and the very personal information we so willingly share.

The "State of the Net" research and statistics from Consumer Reports suggest that there is an overall increase in certain digital problems — such as ID thefts, phishing schemes, and security breaches — in the past year, while issues related malware and unauthorized credit charges are occurring neither more nor less frequently than in the prior 12 months. The most startling findings however, involve how much Facebook knows about its nearly 900 million members, and how much we freely offer — information mined by employers, insurers, the IRS, divorce lawyers, as well as identity thieves and other criminals.

While U.S. legislators speak out against employers requesting Facebook passwords from employees, the following information — much of it sensitive and potentially damaging — doesn't require special access to uncover:

4.7 million “liked” a Facebook page about health conditions or treatments (details an insurer might use against you).
4.8 million have used Facebook to say where they planned to go on a certain day (a potential tip-off for burglars)
20.4 million included their birth date, which can be used by identity thieves
39.3 million identified family members in their profile
900K discussed finances on their wall
1.6 million liked a page pertaining to racial or ethnic affiliations
2.3 million liked a page regarding sexual orientation
7.7 million liked a page pertaining to a religious affiliation
2.6 million discussed their recreational use of alcohol on their wall
4.6 million discussed their love life on their wall

For its study, Consumer Reports "queried Facebook and interviewed some two dozen others, including security experts, privacy lawyers, app developers, and victims of security and privacy abuse." It "dug into private, academic, and government research, as well as Facebook’s labyrinthian policies and controls." It also "surveyed 2,002 online households, including 1,340 that are active on Facebook" and projected the resulting data to estimate national totals. Among its other findings, Consumer Reports noted these problems connected with the information we share:

Some don't use privacy controls. Almost 13 million users said they had never set, or didn’t know about, Facebook’s privacy tools. And 28 percent shared all, or almost all, of their wall posts with an audience wider than just their friends.

Facebook collects more data than you may imagine. For example, did you know that Facebook gets a report every time you visit a site with a Facebook “Like” button, even if you never click the button, are not a Facebook user, or are not logged in?

Your data is shared more widely than you may wish. Even if you have restricted your information to be seen by friends only, a friend who is using a Facebook app could allow your data to be transferred to a third party without your knowledge.

Legal protections are spotty. U.S. online privacy laws are weaker than those of Europe and much of the world, so you have few federal rights to see and control most of the information that social networks collect about you.

And problems are on the rise. Eleven percent of households using Facebook said they had trouble last year, ranging from someone using their log-in without permission to being harassed or threatened. That projects to 7 million households — 30 percent more than last year.

In response to the Consumer Reports study, Andrew Noyes, Facebook's manager of Public Policy Communications, gave msnbc.com the following statement:

We believe more than 900 million consumers have voluntarily decided to share and connect on Facebook because we provide them options and tools that place them in control of their information and experience. As part of our effort to empower and educate consumers, we always welcome constructive conversations about online privacy and safety.

Consumer Reports does note Facebook's efforts to simplify privacy settings and improve security — as well settle allegations from the Federal Trade Commission and submit to independent audits for the next 20 years. But the watchdog outfit also calls out Facebook's support of the controversial Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act (HR 3523), which would allow the social network to share your information with the government without judicial oversight, and states that the social network needs to do more.

Jeff Fox — a technology editor at Consumer Reports who was part of the team of survey professionals, fact checkers, reporters and editors who worked on the study — told msnbc.com that "Facebook's treatment of privacy has often been reactive rather than proactive."

"If they were proactive, we wouldn't have to tell them about some of these glitches," Fox explained, calling attention to a timeline in the Consumer Reports roundup. The social network's history of privacy and security oversteps echo complaints from other digital rights advocates including the American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic Frontier Foundation — that Facebook fixes issues only after it's forced into the spotlight or after authorities approach the social network. "Things would be better if they were proactive and forward-thinking, rather than fixing things and apologizing after they upset people," Fox said.

Users can also do more to protect their privacy and security on Facebook, Consumer Reports noted, and offered the following tips:

Think before you type. Even if you delete an account (which takesFacebook about a month), some info can remain in Facebook’s computers for up to 90 days.

Regularly check your exposure. Each month, check out how your page looks to others.

Review individual privacy settings if necessary. Protect basic information. Set the audience for profile items, such as your town or employer. And remember: Sharing info with “friends of friends” could expose it to tens of thousands.

Know what you can’t protect. Your name and profile picture are public. To protect your identity, don’t use a photo or use one that doesn’t show your face.

“UnPublic” your wall. Set the audience for all previous wall posts to just friends.

Turn off Tag Suggest. If you’d rather not have Facebook automatically recognize your face in photos, disable that feature in your privacy settings. The information will be deleted.

Block apps and sites that snoop. Unless you intercede, friends can share personal information about you with apps. To block that, use controls to limit the info apps can see.

Keep wall posts from friends. You don’t have to share every wall post with every friend. You can also keep certain people from viewing specific items inyour profile.

When all else fails, deactivate. When you deactivate your account, Facebook retains your profile data, but the account is made temporarily inaccessible. Deleting an account, on the other hand, makes it inaccessible to you forever.

For detailed instructions on Facebook privacy tips, and to learn more about the annual "State of the Net," go to ConsumerReports.org/cro/facebookprivacy.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 21:08 (339 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

You could have posted a simple link. You obviously worry more about stats than using your common sense. If you would go to their website and read the privacy settings available to you you would see how easy it is to configure for complete privacy and avoid ID theft. You remind me of people who do a lot of cocaine. :smoking:

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 22:20 (339 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
edited by Craig Scheiner, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 22:54

Why does my not being on Facebook bother you so much?

My posts are not a commentary by me about you personally, your decisions, or your Facebook pages.

Craig

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Monday, July 16, 2012, 08:56 (339 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

It doesn't bother me that you're not on Facebook. It's your pitiful excuses based on ignorance that bother me since somebody else might believe them.

I remember a time when the USA truly was the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave", but that was a long time ago.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Monday, July 16, 2012, 10:22 (339 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

It doesn't bother me that you're not on Facebook. It's your pitiful excuses based on ignorance that bother me since somebody else might believe them.

My reasons are based on findings from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Federal Trade Commission, the ACLU, and Consumer Reports.

People need not follow my decision. They can read for themselves at:
http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/consumer-reports-facebook-privacy-problems-are-rise-749990

Craig

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Monday, July 16, 2012, 10:37 (339 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

The only people having "privacy problems" with FB are folks who take no measures to protect their privacy, Craig. Most likely mouth-breathing sleepwalkers to begin with. You can cite all the friggin' "reports" you want, but you have zero experience, and I, like millions of others including web professionals and security experts, HAVE experience that you continue ignoring for whatever odd reasons. No wonder you're the way you are. I try to like you but then you go all stuck-on-stupid on me.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Monday, July 16, 2012, 10:56 (339 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

You can cite all the friggin' "reports" you want, but you have zero experience, and I, like millions of others including web professionals and security experts, HAVE experience that you continue ignoring for whatever odd reasons.

That's another way of describing the problem. You as a web professional, and security experts, have the tools to protect yourselves. The rest of us are not web pros or security experts and as you say have close to zero experience at protecting ourselves from this stuff.

As a web professional how do you protect yourself from this: Facebook gets a report every time you visit a site with a Facebook “Like” button, even if you never click the button, are not a Facebook user, or are not logged in?

As a web consumer I had no idea this was going on, let alone know how to protect myself from it.

Craig

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Monday, July 16, 2012, 11:12 (339 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

Holy paranoia, Craig! The only "tools" I use are my common sense and standard anti-virus anti-malware programs.

If you want someone to hold your hand through the account set-up process just let me know and I'll be glad to help you.

Since ID theft seems to be your biggest concern, just don't put your birth year anywhere in public view. Simple dimple!

Personally, I almost pity the poor fool who thiefs my ID. :deadhorse:

Find me on Facebook

by Scott, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 01:06 (338 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

As a web professional how do you protect yourself from this: Facebook gets a report every time you visit a site with a Facebook “Like” button, even if you never click the button, are not a Facebook user, or are not logged in?

This is basically true but it is not unique to Facebook. Whenever your browser connects to a server to download content it sends several small bits of information. Your IP address is known to the other computer you are connecting to, and there is very little you can do about that, short of using a proxy server, which means connecting indirectly through another computer, so that the website only knows the IP address of the proxy in the middle, and not the address of the real end user. The IP is necessary because the other computer and intermediate routers in the middle need to know where to send the information.

The other things your browser sends are the URL of the "referring" page, a "user agent" string identifying your browser and operating system version, and these things called cookies. A cookie is a small amount of data, from around 1 to a few thousand characters only, that any website can save on your computer. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s there was a lot of cookie paranoia, and a lot of people were very concerned about them. This is because a website can save a unique "session" id on your computer, so that they know who it is, or at least that it is the same person when each request to load data is made to the server.

You can technically find ways to turn off cookies, browser user agent and referrer strings, but nowadays you'd have a pretty hard time using the web if you did that. You can't log in to web app using a login form on the page unless you have cookies enabled, or else the site wouldn't know who you are as you navigate through its secured areas. They also have other uses besides "tracking ids". This web page uses cookies to record what messages you have read, for example (rather than storing it in the database).

So it is technically true that "Facebook gets a report every time you visit a site with a Facebook “Like” button, even if you never click the button, are not a Facebook user, or are not logged in" but this is true of practically every single thing your browser loads. The only thing unique about the case of Facebook is that they know your real name and other information that you have voluntarily shared with them. With Google for example, they still know practically everything you do on the Internet these days, whether you know it or not, but it has been compiled and associated with you without your explicit consent or knowledge. Many sites use things in the background like Google Analytics which the typical user is not even aware of. They get the same "report" that Facebook gets anytime you load a web page which uses their services, whether its Google Analytics or standard web programming frameworks like JQuery that they host on their servers in the background, or things that you see like Google Plus buttons or Google Adsense Ads. But again, the difference between Google and Facebook, for example, is that while Google has tons and tons of information about you, it has been compiled from various sources without your explicit consent. Whereas with Facebook, they have your explicit consent, so they have a bit more leeway than Google when it comes to how they use that data.

I am a backend web developer so I know a thing or two about this stuff. Basically you should assume that anything you do on the Internet is being tracked by someone and anything you put on the Internet should be information that you are comfortable sharing publicly with anyone in the world - from your friends to employers to law enforcement. My personal opinion is that the amount of data that is out there about you these days makes something like the situation in Cuba look quaint by comparison. Whereas in a so-called "police state" like Cuba you have your neighbours watching and gossiping about pretty much everything you do, in North America you have computers doing it, largely without your knowledge. You are singling out Facebook, but I would suggest that if you want to "protect your privacy", you pretty much have to stop using the Internet and electronic payments such as debit and credit cards altogether. If it isn't private companies collecting data, it is the governments of our countries who have backdoors into the communication networks, and companies like Google and Facebook are also cooperating with 90% + of requests for user data by law enforcement agencies.

But it seems that most people do not really care about this. My hope is that in the future no one is going to care any more about some of those things you point out. For example, there are going to be so many pictures of people "with a can of beer in their hand and red eyes" that no one is going to give a damn about yours. I think the same is even going to happen with things like sexually revealing photos as well. For the current generation these things are not going to be shocking and since most young people in the USA & Canada seem to be using and sharing personal things on social media web sites these days, in the future its going to be hard to companies to even find employees that don't have silly pictures of themselves floating around out there somewhere. I think it'll actually come to be the opposite of what you worry about. Right now there are still prudish companies out there that will punish you or refuse to hire you because you have fun pictures on the Internet. But in the not-so-distant future people are going to start becoming suspicious of people who don't have pictures of themselves doing fun and crazy things. And the old fashioned companies are going to have a hard time competing for talent if they're going to refuse to consider an entire generation of kids growing up right now who are sharing anything and everything online.

Find me on Facebook

by allen @, Pacific Northwest, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 01:18 (338 days ago) @ Scott

Thanks Scott, I do not know it nearly as well as you do but from what I do know I agree completely. If you do not want the world to know about it, do not share it on the web, period.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Craig Scheiner ⌂ @, Sonoma, California, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 16:07 (338 days ago) @ Scott

Scott, thanks very much for your thorough explanation. It explains the way the web works far more clearly than snide comments about people.

Craig

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Labrat @, Still Outside of the Urn, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 16:47 (338 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

Or snide comments about snide comments for that matter!

:omg:

Keith

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by frostbite ⌂ @, Anchorage AK, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 12:06 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I really enjoy the pictures you post on the board and regret - to some degree - not seing them on Facebook. Perhaps I'm being excessively paranoid, but having heard various horror stories about privacy problems with such sites, I prefer not to visit them. Can't we just have differences of opinion without waving middle fingers?

--
[image]
http://www.casa-amarilla-zihua.com

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 15:16 (340 days ago) @ frostbite

I really enjoy the pictures you post on the board and regret - to some degree - not seing them on Facebook. Perhaps I'm being excessively paranoid, but having heard various horror stories about privacy problems with such sites, I prefer not to visit them. Can't we just have differences of opinion without waving middle fingers?

No way! Just what kind of Message Board do you think this is? :jeer:

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by sue in mexico mo @, Mexico, MO USA, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 15:51 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Rob, I'm not sure how to explain this - you are the computer person - but can't the people who are 'afraid' to be on facebook join and then adjust the privacy settings to suit them? I had to get a child to help me once due to adjusting my settings to where even I couldn't see my page. . .

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 20:10 (339 days ago) @ sue in mexico mo

I don't consider myself an expert on Facebook, but I configured my privacy settings according to what I found recommended on the web. A simple Google search should be able to help even the most paranoid person feel comfortable with their privacy settings on Facebook. It's just not that big a deal or that hard to do. I mean, really, if you're that paranoid you shouldn't even be on my message board. B-)

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by DonInPennsylvania ⌂ @, Pennsylvania, USA, Monday, July 16, 2012, 07:13 (339 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Caveat: this is a new Facebook "feature" for which apparently no one has found a fix so far:
"So you might be shocked to learn that Facebook is automatically publishing posts under your name and placing them at the top of the News feed for your friends. In some cases, these posts can include controversial political content that you would never voluntarily post."
See story and examples at
http://www.zdnet.com/is-facebook-damaging-your-reputation-with-sneaky-political-posts-7000000828/

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Monday, July 16, 2012, 08:50 (339 days ago) @ DonInPennsylvania

Don, the article you linked to is a misrepresentation of a Facebook ad, and I have never seen anything like that. The closest type of Facebook ad commonly seen is a "what your friends are saying" or "friends who also like this page" type of widget.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by DonInPennsylvania ⌂ @, Pennsylvania, USA, Monday, July 16, 2012, 12:06 (339 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Thanks for correcting; sorry, usually Zdnet is reliable.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, Gro. México, Monday, July 16, 2012, 14:03 (339 days ago) @ DonInPennsylvania

I agree, I also follow them, but if you read through the responses to their articles you often find where they make mistakes or simply misrepresent something, sometimes intentionally. Remember, they have their corporate sponsers to answer to, so they're not exactly unbiased and free to say anything. I see a lot of websites every day and have yet to see a Facebook ad where I would object to their use of something I posted. Like most corporate websites, they follow your activities via the use of cookies and try to tailor their ads to you through the use of simple gimmicks, such as showing you folks on your friends list who also visit such-and-such website.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by sue in mexico mo @, Mexico, MO USA, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 08:10 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

My day isn't complete until I have had my Zihuatanejo fix via your fb pages! Thanks!

Find me on Facebook

by Gringo Viejo @, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:25 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

"if you can't respect my political and social views stay away from this one"

Gee, Rob, that eliminates at least 51% of your potential viewers!:-D :-D

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Harry ⌂ @, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:46 (340 days ago) @ Gringo Viejo

I love Facebook. Use it all the time. It enables me to stay in touch with far away relatives without either of us taking extraordinary efforts to do so. By subscribing to different channels of interest, I receive daily streams of classic impressionistic paintings, retro humour and daily updates and items of interest from friends all over the world and in a multipicity of languages. Fully 1/2 of my facebook is connected to Mexicans in Zihuatanejo and now another almost "group" of Mexican artists and journalists living in Paris and Spain and involved in media. Our conversations go back and forth in Spanish, French and English, and if I get stuck I just copy and paste to and from google translate.

Like Rob, I use a second stream on facebook to promote my business, usually posting literally daily updates of the graphic production for my little advertising business. This is shared and commented upon by other colleagues who work in the same specialty as far away as Montreal and Cypress in the Mediterranean.

It's been a hoot.
Every once in a while I wonder over to Rob's page for a look see. There's some cute stuff, a few things that aren't my cuppa, but it is what it is....

[image]

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by Fran @, Evanston, IL, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:42 (340 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I like both your Facebook locations, Rob. Had not seen the professional page before. Nice. And I think it's pretty healthy to look at a cross section of political opinion. What you just can't bear to read, you just skip. Seems not too complicated.

Avatar

Find me on Facebook

by LadyM in Zihua @, Zihuatanejo, Mexico, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:53 (340 days ago) @ Fran

There are many places I read things that are not to my liking, but I, like you think a little spice makes things nice.

--
[image]
Julio's Tours
www.juliostours.com

Find me on Facebook

by Oeste Hermoso @, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 18:48 (339 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I have "friended" you. I posted my pictures from the hummingbird tree house tree house on facebook. You cannot see them unless you are a friend. I have never been able to fgure out how to post pictures here.