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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Johnny Briefcase @, Friday, December 01, 2017, 11:06 (11 days ago)

The bill will formalize the military's role in the country's legal justice system. Looks like the old trade off between individual freedom and public security. If the bill is passed, I wonder how, if at all, it will affect the lot of the average touristo. ....JB

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/security-bill-advances-despite-opposition/

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Friday, December 01, 2017, 11:47 (11 days ago) @ Johnny Briefcase

The bill will formalize the military's role in the country's legal justice system. Looks like the old trade off between individual freedom and public security. If the bill is passed, I wonder how, if at all, it will affect the lot of the average touristo. ....JB

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/security-bill-advances-despite-opposition/

The bill passed in the Cámara de Diputados and now goes to the Senado where it is expected to pass. I don't see it as a trade off between individual freedom at all. It simply gives Mexico's military the judicial certainty to be able to operate in our streets in order to take up the slack where our police forces have failed and been overwhelmed by the USA's cartel-controlled multi-billion dollar a year black market created by their prohibition of popular recreational substances consumed by over 40 million of their citizens, and in exchange for supplying their black market we get violent organized criminals who are apparently allowed by the US government to import over a quarter million banned firearms a year into Mexico to protect their interests, thus easily overwhelming our government's resources to be able to deal with the USA's proxy war being fought in our country.

The so-called opposition offers no alternative proposals, only false arguments and insults. Constructive proposals would be welcomed, but let's not forget that from the ranks of this "opposition" came the ex-mayor of Iguala and the ex-governor of Guerrero, responsible for the deaths of the 43 teaching students (among others), as well as Zihuatanejo's current mayor, responsible for us not having a functional police force.

This isn't about ideologies or even politics, it's about doing what is unfortunately necessary given the extraordinary circumstances.

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by midalake @, Friday, December 01, 2017, 11:57 (11 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

The bill will formalize the military's role in the country's legal justice system. Looks like the old trade off between individual freedom and public security. If the bill is passed, I wonder how, if at all, it will affect the lot of the average touristo. ....JB

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/security-bill-advances-despite-opposition/


The bill passed in the Cámara de Diputados and now goes to the Senado where it is expected to pass. I don't see it as a trade off between individual freedom at all. It simply gives Mexico's military the judicial certainty to be able to operate in our streets in order to take up the slack where our police forces have failed and been overwhelmed by the USA's cartel-controlled multi-billion dollar a year black market created by their prohibition of popular recreational substances consumed by over 40 million of their citizens, and in exchange for supplying their black market we get violent organized criminals who are apparently allowed by the US government to import over a quarter million banned firearms a year into Mexico to protect their interests, thus easily overwhelming our government's resources to be able to deal with the USA's proxy war being fought in our country.

The so-called opposition offers no alternative proposals, only false arguments and insults. Constructive proposals would be welcomed, but let's not forget that from the ranks of this "opposition" came the ex-mayor of Iguala and the ex-governor of Guerrero, responsible for the deaths of the 43 teaching students (among others), as well as Zihuatanejo's current mayor, responsible for us not having a functional police force.

This isn't about ideologies or even politics, it's about doing what is unfortunately necessary given the extraordinary circumstances.

by the USA's cartel-controlled multi-billion dollar a year black market



organized criminals who are apparently allowed by the US government to import over a quarter million banned firearms a year

Of course you would screw up a mediocre statement.

This should appear in the "opinions" section, of any great tabloid.

D

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Friday, December 01, 2017, 12:07 (11 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Here we go again...............

[image]

Keith

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by wisconsinjuan, Friday, December 01, 2017, 12:40 (11 days ago) @ Labrat

Rob- I respect your opinion about a lot of things, but not US policy on drugs and who is responsible for what. When it comes to pot in the US, more than half of the states have now legalized for medical or recreational use. We grow much better pot in the US than the old pot standard "Acapulco Gold".

This is about cocaine and heroin. And your view on this is equivalent to a woman being blamed for getting raped because she dressed sexy or did something stupid. We should be doing some things differently granted. I hope you never have anyone close to you get addicted, but you might change your tune if that happened. Just try heroin once and your life is changed forever.And not for the better.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Friday, December 01, 2017, 14:30 (11 days ago) @ wisconsinjuan

Rob- I respect your opinion about a lot of things, but not US policy on drugs and who is responsible for what. When it comes to pot in the US, more than half of the states have now legalized for medical or recreational use. We grow much better pot in the US than the old pot standard "Acapulco Gold".

This is about cocaine and heroin. And your view on this is equivalent to a woman being blamed for getting raped because she dressed sexy or did something stupid. We should be doing some things differently granted. I hope you never have anyone close to you get addicted, but you might change your tune if that happened. Just try heroin once and your life is changed forever.And not for the better.

My view, like that of Mexico's Corte Suprema, is that people should be allowed to ingest the substances they want to. Most people who use stupidly banned substances are neither addicts nor abusers, as most people who drink alcohol aren't alcoholics. Why do the lessons of Prohibition continue being ignored?

Mexico would not be overwhelmed with organized criminal violence if (a) Mexico did not share a border with the USA, and (b) the USA hadn't stupidly interfered in Colombia's affairs and handed Mexican cartels Colombia's drug business on a silver platter, including the especially lucrative cocaine trade. How many failed policies does the USA have to accrue before it fixes them? The USA invades and meddles in many countries, yet look at your indignance at suspecting Russian meddling in a US election. Pot meets kettle.

A damn shame you prefer to continue the avoidance of truth and reality instead of being able to have an adult discussion on the matter. Like too much of US history.

Mexico's cartels help supply the largest consumer of stupidly banned recreational substances in the world. Tell me again how that is on Mexico but not the USA. Tell me again how that is like blaming the rape victim. I never knew a victim who supplied their attacker with weapons or paid them for their "product".

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by wisconsinjuan, Friday, December 01, 2017, 16:13 (11 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Heroin is not a recreational drug.

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by h4Dan, Friday, December 01, 2017, 16:36 (11 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

You keep referring to "stupidly banned recreational substances" Would you please say just exactly what substances you are referring to if any besides Cannabis.

More to the point are you suggesting cocaine or heroin should be freely available to anyone? How about Fenaytal and methadone? Where do you draw the line, or do you?

I can understand Cannabis and hallucinogenic mushrooms but not opiates whither natural of synthetic.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Friday, December 01, 2017, 18:03 (11 days ago) @ h4Dan

Feel free to name a federal policy regarding stupidly banned recreational substances that has worked during the past 90 years, that has saved more lives than its NOT being illegal would have cost. Yes, even heroin. What difference does it make what you call your poison? The facts remain of the demand and the multi-billion dollar a year market and the cure being worse than the disease.

This isn’t about me or what I think. It’s about facts on the ground. Tangible empirical evidence. Culture (including acculturation). And history.

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by rdcosta @, Friday, December 01, 2017, 19:08 (11 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I definitely agree with you Rob. If the drugs were legalized a lot of things would happen. The money spent on trying to stop the drug trade would be reduced by enormous amounts. The government would have control on the sale and therefore could make a profit,instead of spending money on prevention. The money from the profits could be used for education and rehab.the drug cartels would have nobody to sell to and that would reduce a lot of the violence, although they would find another avenue to make money but perhaps it would give our police so room to breath and reorganize

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by hromero @, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 10:40 (10 days ago) @ h4Dan

We, the United States, have tried prohibition of Alcohol and it failed. We have tried prohibition of drugs for the past 40+ years and it hasn't reduced drug use or deaths from drug overdoses one bit. Don't get me wrong, I think heroin, meth, and cocaine are terrible drugs that we as a society should discourage people from using. But it is clear that the militaristic approach we have taken is not working. At some point we need to consider other approaches to get different results.

Portugal took an approach of decriminalizing drugs, not legalizing them but decriminalizing them, and decided to treat drug addiction as a public health issue. They still confiscate drugs but instead of sending the users to jail they refer them to drug treatment that is enforced by the police. Methadone and other treatment drugs are offered as part of that treatment. As a result deaths from overdoses have decreased dramatically in the country as well as vastly reducing the attractiveness of Portugal as a market for the illicit drug trade. I am not saying that Portugal's solution is perfect or that it is the only way to take a different tack but it does show that a different approach can produce better results than what we see today.

We too often jump to a military solution to problems we see despite the fact that we have ample evidence that many times (most times?) it produces worse results. Our militaristic approach to the drug trade has not produced the positive results we intended them to achieve and I think it fair to argue that it has made it worse for ourselves and other countries than if we had done nothing. I think it is time that we search for non-militaristic approach.

Mexico has its own issues to address with its current problems because its corruption and inequality precede the drug war. The U.S. should stop contributing to those problems by adding our own.

My two cents worth.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by frostbite ⌂ @, Hamilton MT, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 10:52 (10 days ago) @ hromero

Agreed. But getting the US to adopt something that was invented elsewhere, wouldn't be easy.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by K&B, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 12:09 (10 days ago) @ hromero

Your argument makes a lot of sense, however if drugs were decriminalized in America but were still illegal , it wouldn’t change anything in Mexico. The cartel would still be in charge of exporting to the USA.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 13:33 (10 days ago) @ K&B

Your argument makes a lot of sense, however if drugs were decriminalized in America but were still illegal , it wouldn’t change anything in Mexico. The cartel would still be in charge of exporting to the USA.

It would change a lot. It would give Mexico incentive to legalize their production and remove the violent multi-billion dollar black market from the equation. Here in Guerrero the gobernador has been trying to get the cultivation and production of amapola legalized.

I doubt anyone reading here is even aware or can imagine what life is like in the poor rural indigenous villages of the sierra where roads are few and contact with the outside world infrequent as the area is controlled by violent organized criminals. Just last week a military helicopter pilot was killed when his craft was brought down by poppy growers in a remote area of the sierra. As if his death and the loss of the craft aren't bad enough, unfortunately this will cause more hardship for the poor farmers and their families than anyone else as the federal government now seeks revenge even though they had violated an agreement not to carry out aerial spraying.

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by K&B, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 18:27 (10 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Possession has remained prohibited by Portuguese law, and criminal penalties are still applied to drug growers, dealers and traffickers. With this being the case, how would the black market/cartel in Mexico be any different? I could see it if the government of the USA regulated the distribution of the drugs along with legalizing the use of the drugs.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 19:33 (10 days ago) @ K&B

Possession has remained prohibited by Portuguese law, and criminal penalties are still applied to drug growers, dealers and traffickers. With this being the case, how would the black market/cartel in Mexico be any different? I could see it if the government of the USA regulated the distribution of the drugs along with legalizing the use of the drugs.

I believe you misunderstand. As long as they aren't bothering anyone or otherwise being disrespectful the Portuguese police won't bother anyone for possession for personal use unless they have a lot of dope on them. In their case tolerance and decriminalization work together to achieve the desired effect of reducing abuse and reducing crime associated with banned recreational substance. They have only reduced the problem within their border. They share no common border with any nation that produces banned popular substances.

The USA needs to do the right thing for its own people first, and that means recognizing the historic fact that millions of its citizens prefer alternative substances to alcohol in order to relax and enjoy themselves. The extremely counterproductive policy of locking people up for the use of stupidly banned substances has only resulted in adding to the impoverished and criminal classes and caused untold suffering to millions of families for generations in the USA alone. The goal shouldn't be to meet law enforcement quotas or fill private prisons that pay kickbacks to politicians, just like it shouldn't be to prescribe opiates to receive kickbacks from Big Pharma. The goal should be to enhance the quality of life with as few restrictions as possible (that's what freedom is supposed to be about).

No one wants their children to do deadly drugs like meth, heroin, fentanyl or cocaine. But history has clearly shown us what policies don't work. Let folks kill themselves with the poison of their choice, but don't allow them to be a burden on taxpaying citizens. That's where legalization, regulation and taxation are essential to ending the cycle of misery and providing education that empowers people to better their lives.

But there's a whole lot of acculturated prejudice to get past first. And apparently it's still near impossible in the political arena of the USA and Mexico to even have an adult discussion on the matter, with the exception of people like Sen. Bernie Sanders, Dr. Jill Stein and like minded progressives.

Portugal’s Example: What Happened After It Decriminalized All Drugs, From Weed to Heroin

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 20:06 (10 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I don't support prohibition. That said I believe it is a bit naive to think that the Cartels would simply lay down and disappear if the U.S. were tomorrow simply legalize Everything.

After all, there is an entire would out there with the very same prohibitions.
The Cartels would simply shift markets to other countries and as for the U.S. market they would expand into other markets. Women, gambling, and anywhere else that there is a Black Market Buck to be made.

Hell, they would probably even start Bootlegging Cigarettes since they are about $90 a Carton up here most places now, and even more in places like New York.

Cost of a pack of Cigarettes by State

Just think of the market that that States are already building for them.

JMO

Keith

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 20:28 (10 days ago) @ Labrat

I don't support prohibition. That said I believe it is a bit naive to think that the Cartels would simply lay down and disappear if the U.S. were tomorrow simply legalize Everything.

After all, there is an entire would out there with the very same prohibitions.
The Cartels would simply shift markets to other countries and as for the U.S. market they would expand into other markets. Women, gambling, and anywhere else that there is a Black Market Buck to be made.

Hell, they would probably even start Bootlegging Cigarettes since they are about $90 a Carton up here most places now, and even more in places like New York.

Cost of a pack of Cigarettes by State

Just think of the market that that States are already building for them.

JMO

Keith

You're way behind. Waiting and doing what has been failing for decades only allows criminal organizations to grow more powerful. The USA's criminal organizations that grew under Prohibition were essentially given their own state to run, after of course being run out of Cuba. Let's give the ones who are tired of the killing the chance to become "legitimate" businessmen like the USA did with bootleggers.

A little background:

Prohibition In America: A Brief History

A Brief History of the Drug War

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Sunday, December 03, 2017, 08:59 (9 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Your myopia about the U.S. being the source of the World's Problems does you a disservice.

Keith

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Zbulldog @, Sunday, December 03, 2017, 09:29 (9 days ago) @ Labrat

How so?

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Canada1 @, Sunday, December 03, 2017, 10:14 (9 days ago) @ Labrat

Your myopia about the U.S. being the source of the World's Problems does you a disservice.

Keith

I tend to agree....too busy focusing on constant attacking of the country notb, not sure i would like to allways read those attacks if i was an u.s. citizen.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Sunday, December 03, 2017, 15:46 (9 days ago) @ Canada1

Oh, I don't have any illusions about the U.S Bloody Hand concerning Prohibition.

But then I don't patently ignore the rest of the World either.

Keith

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by hromero @, Monday, December 04, 2017, 08:51 (8 days ago) @ Labrat

I would like to interject a different idea to see if this helps understand how the U.S. has a shared responsibility with the drug violence gripping Mexico and much of the rest of the Americas.

I have seen many conversations on this board about the turtle egg poachers on our beach and I believe that is mostly uncontroversial that the poaching of the turtle eggs is a problem that is threatening that species. So why are the poachers going out in the middle of the night to wait for the turtles to come on to the beach and search for their nests in order to harvest them? Because there is a market where they can sell those eggs for personal profit. There are thousands of KM of beaches to monitor to go after the people who are poaching the eggs and the resources required to successfully monitor those beaches and prevent poaching would be vast. If we could instead educate the populace about why buying turtle eggs and eating them is bad for them and for the environment and encourage them to NOT buy them then we would remove the incentive for the poaching. The consumers of the turtle eggs have a shared responsibility in the declining viability of the sea turtle population.

The sea turtle scenario above has a lot of parallels to the drug problem.

U.S. citizens are by far the largest consumer of illicit drugs. We made a decision as a country, 40 years ago, that the way to fix that was to "go to war". We have devoted ever more resources to that war during that period only to find out that every time we apply pressure in one place the suppliers move someplace else. If we instead focused our efforts on treatment for the users at home so that the demand could be reduced it would rob the suppliers everywhere of their source of money. As the consumers we have a shared responsibility. When U.S. consumers spend approximately $100 billion on illicit drugs per year and the entire Mexican economy is about $1 trillion it is easy to see how the dollars spent on consumption would be VERY difficult for the Mexican people to combat that pressure. Mexico, a country with many people that I love in it, has its own issues that need to be addressed and require self reflection.

I have two family members who have succumb to addiction to meth and I know from seeing what it has done to them that it is a terrible drug that we should by no means encourage. Our insistence on a military approach to combating that has been an abject failure from my perspective that not only hasn't helped ourselves but has inflicted a lot of pain on our neighbors. We have an example of a successful education/treatment program that brings down usage in the form of cigarette smoking. We didn't prohibit it but instead created revenues for the state from the sales that were at least partially used for successful campaigns that have vastly reduced smoking. People who wish to continue smoking may still do so at their own risk but they don't have to go to an underworld organization. The U.S. is a country that I can be proud of because we created a system that can recognize when we make mistakes and change course to improve ourselves. I think we can do better in this case.

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Monday, December 04, 2017, 09:12 (8 days ago) @ hromero

:megusta:

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Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by K&B, Monday, December 04, 2017, 10:38 (8 days ago) @ hromero

Wow, very articulate and makes a lot of sense. All without name calling. :megusta:

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by midalake @, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 21:33 (10 days ago) @ Labrat

I don't support prohibition. That said I believe it is a bit naive to think that the Cartels would simply lay down and disappear if the U.S. were tomorrow simply legalize Everything.

After all, there is an entire would out there with the very same prohibitions.
The Cartels would simply shift markets to other countries and as for the U.S. market they would expand into other markets. Women, gambling, and anywhere else that there is a Black Market Buck to be made.

Hell, they would probably even start Bootlegging Cigarettes since they are about $90 a Carton up here most places now, and even more in places like New York.

Cost of a pack of Cigarettes by State

Just think of the market that that States are already building for them.

JMO

Keith

Kidnapping.............I say kill them ALL............

D

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Canada1 @, Sunday, December 03, 2017, 01:38 (9 days ago) @ Labrat

$113.00 a carton here in alberta!

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by rdcosta @, Saturday, December 02, 2017, 16:32 (10 days ago) @ K&B

And there's the need to legalize them

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Canada1 @, Friday, December 01, 2017, 18:58 (11 days ago) @ wisconsinjuan

And july1/18 pot will be legal canada wide!

Mexico Debates New Security Bill

by Roberto G., Saturday, December 02, 2017, 13:52 (10 days ago) @ Canada1

:megusta: