Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Saturday, September 08, 2018, 19:04 (68 days ago)

So we all know what Trump and his colleagues are up to. It's called "divide and conquer"! But what I'm concerned about is why the new negotiator from Mexico would overstep his bounds after discussing matters specific to Mexico/US and then move on to topics that involve all three proponents! Didn't anyone give him the "skinny" on how this works?

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 09:24 (67 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

You can blame Trudeau and his people for messing this up. I read in the Globe and Mail that Canada tried throwing Mexico under the bus early in the negotiations without involving them. Stupid mistake as this pretty well gave Mexico the right to do the what was best for them instead of working together to get a better deal from the US. From what I know, the Trudeau government is trying to save face trying to salvage a deal and present it as a win-win-win. I think we all know the loser in all of this will be Canada after that stupid stunt of theirs early in the negotiations.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 17:52 (67 days ago) @ zzztime

Fake News!

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 22:30 (67 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

:megusta:

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 08:12 (66 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

Not really sure how it's fake news as the article is factually based on the timeline of events in the NAFTA talks. Seems like Trump isn't the only one that is in a alternative reality.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by HolyMole @, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 18:30 (67 days ago) @ zzztime

You can blame Trudeau and his people for messing this up. I read in the Globe and Mail that Canada tried throwing Mexico under the bus early in the negotiations without involving them. Stupid mistake as this pretty well gave Mexico the right to do the what was best for them instead of working together to get a better deal from the US. From what I know, the Trudeau government is trying to save face trying to salvage a deal and present it as a win-win-win. I think we all know the loser in all of this will be Canada after that stupid stunt of theirs early in the negotiations.

Another Albertan Trudeau-hater? But in the interests of balance...like Fox News' motto: "Fair and Balanced" ;-)....here's a sort-of Alberta opinion that I like:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/thebigdebate/2018/06/18/should-canada-give-up-on-nafta-yes.html

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 21:30 (67 days ago) @ HolyMole

this is more fake news! Do you think the oil & gas industry wants to send their dirty oil back east? Nope! They think that shipping it to China will make them more money; and it's always all about the money! Why are we importing oil from OPEC to eastern Canada when we have plenty in our own country? MONEY!

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 22:31 (67 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

:megusta:

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by HolyMole @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 02:05 (66 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

this is more fake news! Do you think the oil & gas industry wants to send their dirty oil back east? Nope! They think that shipping it to China will make them more money; and it's always all about the money! Why are we importing oil from OPEC to eastern Canada when we have plenty in our own country? MONEY!

You've got a twisted understanding of the term "fake news". The article highlighted is an opinion piece by a political economist at the University of Alberta, (and brother of the late James Laxer, a prominent Canadian author and economist during the 60s and 70s). You may disagree with Laxer's opinions, but they certainly aren't "fake news".

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 11:09 (66 days ago) @ HolyMole

"Political Economist at the U of Alberta" you say? I rest my case!

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by HolyMole @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 14:08 (66 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

"Political Economist at the U of Alberta" you say? I rest my case!

Ok, we've established that you have a problem with either the word "political", the word "economist" or the entire University of Alberta.
Fine.
But please stop legitimizing Trump's shrill shrieks of "Fake News!" by trotting it out just because you disagree with the article.

Fake news is usually defined as news which is purposely, knowingly false, which "contains some form of dishonesty, typically to promote a political agenda".
He's too stupid to realize it, but Trump's use of the term perverts its meaning into "any news which is honest and true, but unflattering".

Laxer's opinion piece is not "fake news".

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 15:41 (66 days ago) @ HolyMole

:megusta:

Couldn't agree more about abusing the term fake news. There's just one too many wingnut - singular - out there using it.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Tuesday, September 11, 2018, 11:34 (65 days ago) @ zzztime

Call it what you will. There is an agenda in place, and this is part of it!

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 08:59 (66 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

Instead of ranting about the dirty oil conspiracies, maybe get some perspective. Canada produces different grades of oil which can be refined back east. The refineries out east depend on the lighter oil which without pipelines or rail, are unable to get it there. Do you think the oil being imported from OPEC is the bitumen from the oil sands or the light oil? Do you think the imported oil is going back into Alberta or the eastern refineries? Are you one that complains about the cost of gas? If you are, then the cost of gas would definitely go up without imports and could even lessen with a pipeline going east. You are correct that getting the oil off shore is about money but are you forgetting the fact that since pipelines are at capacity,a discount is placed on the oil supplied by Alberta? The more capacity that they can get out, the lower the discount for Canada oil which means higher value to the oil so yes it is about money. How do you propose to replace the revenue that is provided by the energy sector? Although clean energy and technology are way of the future, how do we bridge the gap?

I work in IT in BC and would love for the world to slow greenhouse gasses, which by the way from another perspective is fake news. I'm in a reality based world where I fully understand that although dirty, oil sands based oil is what helps pays for healthcare and education as well as pensions and infrastructure. Cut that out and you'll have a funding disaster.

...but then again everything in my post must be fake news.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 08:24 (66 days ago) @ HolyMole

I'm actually from BC and wouldn't consider myself a Trudeau hater. Like any political party there's some good and some bad that I see in every leader. In regards to your article, I also believe that no deal is better than any deal for Canada. Ultimately, a 3 way deal is best for all since all economies are so tightly integrated but not at any cost.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Monday, September 10, 2018, 19:44 (66 days ago) @ zzztime

:megusta:

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Ernie Gorrie ⌂ @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 15:24 (66 days ago) @ zzztime

Can you provide a link for the Globe & Mail article? I have searched and I have been unable to find anything that resembles what you stated.

All of the material I have seen refers to the US having bilateral discussions with Canada and bilateral discussions with Mexico regarding issues that were limited to the countries in the discussions.

I have found nothing that indicates that Canada and the US were trying to enter into an agreement that would have adversely affected Mexico without Mexico being part of the discussions.

--
www.dreaminmexico.com

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 15:36 (66 days ago) @ Ernie Gorrie

The link is here but sits behind a paywall.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-why-mexico-stabbed-canada-in-the-back-in-nafta-negotiations/

The first paragraphs are as follows...

In mid-May, Canada thought it saw an opening for a quick NAFTA deal.
With a key congressional deadline looming, Canadian officials offered the Trump administration two big prizes: new auto sector rules that would move jobs out of Mexico and more access to the protected Canadian dairy market for American farmers. In exchange, they asked that the United States take most of its other demands off the table.

Mexican negotiators were blindsided. They were not ready to agree to the tougher auto rules. And they believed they had a handshake agreement with Canada going into the talks: Neither of the North American free-trade agreement’s junior partners would seek a separate peace with the United States.

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Throwing Canada under the bus?

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 21:46 (67 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

So we all know what Trump and his colleagues are up to. It's called "divide and conquer"! But what I'm concerned about is why the new negotiator from Mexico would overstep his bounds after discussing matters specific to Mexico/US and then move on to topics that involve all three proponents! Didn't anyone give him the "skinny" on how this works?

It’s in Mexico’s interests that Canada continues in the same economic relationship with Mexico as has existed since the signing of the original NAFTA. It helps stabilize our currency and strengthen our economy. Some economists here believe Mexico rushed into an agreement with the USA, and they laud Trudeau’s hard stance with the USA for more favorable trade terms.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Sunday, September 09, 2018, 22:31 (67 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

:megusta:

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 11:11 (66 days ago) @ cd69

:megusta:

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Paulf @, Mount Sterling, Ky 40353, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:09 (66 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

Read where Canada created a milk classification so milk ingredients could be taxed higher from the US such as protein concentrates, skim milk and whole milk powder. This has the dairy farmers in the US in a up roar because of the price of the bye products in Canada.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Quadra Paul @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 13:26 (66 days ago) @ Paulf

Our dairy industry operates under a system called supply management. US producers are producing way too much milk for their own needs so they want to dump it in Canada. It would put our dairy industry out of business! They also treat their milk with an additive which, according to some sources is not good for your health! We don't want or need any US milk! BTW this is not new; has been this way for years.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by zzztime @, Monday, September 10, 2018, 15:39 (66 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

On this point I will agree with you. How do you get a 4 month expiry date with fresh milk? Unfortunately, if this isn't included in the terms, there may be no deal.

Throwing Canada under the bus?

by Bcbuddy, Monday, September 10, 2018, 18:07 (66 days ago) @ zzztime

Forget the oil and dairy this all about auto jobs. The USA will always need Canada's oil and this is our wild card. Mexico took alot of auto jobs from Ontario with the low wages and good for them but Canada always stated from the beginning there has to be a 3 way deal. I believe Canada always had the intention to raise workers wages in auto Mexico and beyond but this Moron Mexican President is signing a deal before he leaves office that is bad for everyone but Trump. Mexico did screw Canada and themselves. Btw my Mexican mother in law and aunt who are teachers in Mexico city are visiting me now have responded to my inquiries about this by telling me the media in Mexico are reporting Canada walked away from discussions and have no interest in making a deal. Talk about fake news, the truth in media in Mexico usually means a drive by

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Throwing Canada under the bus?

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Monday, September 10, 2018, 20:14 (66 days ago) @ Bcbuddy

Forget the oil and dairy this all about auto jobs. The USA will always need Canada's oil and this is our wild card. Mexico took alot of auto jobs from Ontario with the low wages and good for them but Canada always stated from the beginning there has to be a 3 way deal. I believe Canada always had the intention to raise workers wages in auto Mexico and beyond but this Moron Mexican President is signing a deal before he leaves office that is bad for everyone but Trump. Mexico did screw Canada and themselves. Btw my Mexican mother in law and aunt who are teachers in Mexico city are visiting me now have responded to my inquiries about this by telling me the media in Mexico are reporting Canada walked away from discussions and have no interest in making a deal. Talk about fake news, the truth in media in Mexico usually means a drive by

That is not the news I'm hearing, as I already stated. Might I respectfully suggest your family members expand their news sources. I may not ce as cosmopolitan as many of our capitalinos, but I'm confident in my abilities to find good sources of news. I list many very reliable sources on my NEWS page.

While the current Mexican president's negotiating team may not have made the best deal from the point of view of some of the nation's leading economists, the incoming Mexican president has had his policies and points of view represented. The incoming and outgoing administrations have essentially been working together on this. My take is that the problem from the git-go has been the US president and his political games that do not have put the best interests of any nation first but instead put political ambitions over economic considerations, since according to all the leading experts NAFTA was working in spite of the resistance to its implementation by the USA and the lack of coordination by our legislators here in Mexico to make the laws necessary to take full advantage of NAFTA by not meeting certain obligations. Wages and laws weren't homogenizing fast enough even though the plan was always a long-term implementation, but to a large degree Mexico dropped the ball by playing the USA's proxy "war on drugs" game for the past 12 years. So in the recent agreement Mexico took some hits to minimize losses and stabilize Mexico's economy which was being negatively affected by the lack of an agreement.

We've got our work cut out for us, to be sure, but Mexico has always wanted this to be an agreement inclusive of Canada, and I keep getting the impression that behind the scenes Mexican officials are cheering on Trudeau's negotiators for their tough stance.

Attaboy Canada!