Face masks

by Wonderful Wino, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 10:20 (31 days ago)

From yesterday's Mexico News Daily:

Both President López Obrador and Deputy Health Minister Hugo López-Gatell ruled out any possibility that the federal government will enforce the use of face masks, on top of which the latter described their effectiveness in stopping the spread of the coronavirus as “overstated.”
“We’ve recommended and we continue to recommend the use of face masks … but we’re not going to exercise a coercive action that leads to people not wearing face masks being sanctioned with fines or being arrested,” López-Gatell told President López Obrador’s Tuesday press conference.
The coronavirus point man asserted that the value of face masks is “overstated” in the “public narrative,” saying that “scientific evidence shows that they are an auxiliary instrument” in the fight against the spread of the virus.
“They complement other measures – this is the technical stance of the World Health Organization, of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the United States, of authorities in Europe and also of the government of Mexico,” López-Gatell said.
He said that face masks don’t provide significant protection to those wearing them, explaining that their value is that they can stop infected people spreading the virus to others.
“The face masks that several of you are wearing,” López-Gatell told reporters, “are helping you not to infect someone else in the case that you are sick but we have to be very aware they don’t help us as a protective barrier at an individual level.”

Might this explain why so many tourists, among others, are not following the protocol?

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Face masks

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 12:16 (31 days ago) @ Wonderful Wino

From yesterday's Mexico News Daily:

Both President López Obrador and Deputy Health Minister Hugo López-Gatell ruled out any possibility that the federal government will enforce the use of face masks, on top of which the latter described their effectiveness in stopping the spread of the coronavirus as “overstated.”
“We’ve recommended and we continue to recommend the use of face masks … but we’re not going to exercise a coercive action that leads to people not wearing face masks being sanctioned with fines or being arrested,” López-Gatell told President López Obrador’s Tuesday press conference.
The coronavirus point man asserted that the value of face masks is “overstated” in the “public narrative,” saying that “scientific evidence shows that they are an auxiliary instrument” in the fight against the spread of the virus.
“They complement other measures – this is the technical stance of the World Health Organization, of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the United States, of authorities in Europe and also of the government of Mexico,” López-Gatell said.
He said that face masks don’t provide significant protection to those wearing them, explaining that their value is that they can stop infected people spreading the virus to others.
“The face masks that several of you are wearing,” López-Gatell told reporters, “are helping you not to infect someone else in the case that you are sick but we have to be very aware they don’t help us as a protective barrier at an individual level.”

Might this explain why so many tourists, among others, are not following the protocol?

This is not new. The federal government cannot be in the localities. That is a job for municipal governments. Dr. López-Gatell does not want increased interactions among people that would only result in more contagions. But the Mexico Daily News uses this type of article to smear López Obrador. Since February of this year Mexico's authorities including the president and Dr. López-Gatell have called on people to usar cubrebocas, mantener la sana distancia y quedarse en casa. This has been the unwavering message from the beginning. That laypeople don't understand technicalities is a separate issue. Wearing a facemask is a sign of respect for others.

Tourists are just lost in their own world. They are, after all, on vacation both mentally and physically.

Face masks

by Casa Juan @, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 13:58 (31 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

its very common in Zihua for people at work, see Capaz workers, Pemex etc. to wear a mask under their mouth and nose , even the combi drivers and their patrons. Possibly the workers can quickly comply with their employer mandates by pulling up the mask when necessary. Solid mask wearing is not being universally practiced in Zihua right now.

Face masks

by Quadra Paul @, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 16:45 (30 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

And, as we all know, when some people go on holidays, they leave their brains at home!

Face masks

by mindpilot, la Playa Buenavista, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 12:17 (31 days ago) @ Wonderful Wino

Well isn't that the whole idea? Face masks keep you from spreading the virus to others. So you wear a mask in case you are a carrier and don't know it.

I don't think anyone--at least anyone with any actual medical knowledge--has ever said masks prevent you from catching the virus. That is not how it works.

I wish politicians understood more basic science and could explain this better. Maybe then mask-wearing would not have become so politicized.

That said, if you are out in public without a mask, then you are as much of a uncaring jerk as the person who doesn't wash their hands after using the restroom. Except the contagions that person spreads are probably not going to kill anyone.

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Face masks

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 12:18 (31 days ago) @ mindpilot

Well isn't that the whole idea? Face masks keep you from spreading the virus to others. So you wear a mask in case you are a carrier and don't know it.

I don't think anyone--at least anyone with any actual medical knowledge--has ever said masks prevent you from catching the virus. That is not how it works.

I wish politicians understood more basic science and could explain this better. Maybe then mask-wearing would not have become so politicized.

That said, if you are out in public without a mask, then you are as much of a uncaring jerk as the person who doesn't wash their hands after using the restroom. Except the contagions that person spreads are probably not going to kill anyone.

Wait now. I was taught not to pee on my hands. :devil: :stirpot:

Face masks

by mindpilot, la Playa Buenavista, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 12:25 (31 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Yeah, me too. But I'm not sure about the last guy to touch that valve.:-)

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Face masks

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Thursday, October 29, 2020, 13:43 (31 days ago) @ mindpilot

Yeah, me too. But I'm not sure about the last guy to touch that valve.:-)

Well there ya go. I flush with my foot or not at all. :kingtut:

Face masks

by Amiga de Montreal @, Friday, October 30, 2020, 14:20 (30 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Here is a very interesting article in Nature (one of the best scientific journals) showing that masks probably protect the user too by diminishing the number of particules of the virus inhaled by the wearer and by doing so the infection might not become out of control due to too much inflammation of the lungs.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

Face masks

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Friday, October 30, 2020, 16:03 (29 days ago) @ Amiga de Montreal

This is absolutely correct. When masks are worn properly while maintaining social distancing and washing their hands and their masks, it does protect others mainly but do offer protection to the wearer too.

Face masks

by Rigamarta, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 14:01 (28 days ago) @ cd69

Only about 3% of the masks being warn by the general public are rated n95. The rest won't stop any airborne particals, but it gives a good sense of false security.

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Face masks

by hromero ⌂ @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 14:23 (28 days ago) @ Rigamarta

You are wrong about the purpose of the masks and social distancing. While fabric masks won't block the virus, they serve to contain the droplets that carry the virus. So if I wear a fabric mask that reduces the amount of droplets that escape into the air by 50% and you wear a mask that prevents 50% of the virus laden droplets then our mutual risk is reduced by 75%. N95 masks are obviously much better but until they aren't in short supply fabric masks are significantly better than nothing. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

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Face masks

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 14:25 (28 days ago) @ Rigamarta

Only about 3% of the masks being warn by the general public are rated n95. The rest won't stop any airborne particals, but it gives a good sense of false security.

Your claim is at best a bad guess. Please don’t add to the confusion your president has already made mainstream in the States.

Face masks

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Monday, November 02, 2020, 02:01 (27 days ago) @ Rigamarta

Your statement is false regarding a false sense of security. As for the 3% of mask wearer using a N95, I wonder where you got that stat and for where. There are plenty of different type of cloth masks out there and how effective vary, I will give you that. But frankly it is not as much the mask itself than how it is worn that wil make the difference and while respecting social distancing. If you do understand how they work, cloth mask are very effective.

Face masks

by DrSteve, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 09:02 (28 days ago) @ mindpilot

Please do not prejudge a person who may not have a mask on. There are those who simply cannot wear a mask for various reasons. Also there are those who have already had the Covid and are not carriers and will not reinfect.

Secondly, whether you are comfortable with this fact or not, we will ALL , at some point, be exposed to the Covid-19. We are all just delaying the inevitable. The good news, over 99% of us will survive with very little symptoms or danger of succumbing to the infection.

Carry on folks.

Face masks

by midalake @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 11:15 (28 days ago) @ DrSteve

Please do not prejudge a person who may not have a mask on. There are those who simply cannot wear a mask for various reasons. Also there are those who have already had the Covid and are not carriers and will not reinfect.

Secondly, whether you are comfortable with this fact or not, we will ALL , at some point, be exposed to the Covid-19. We are all just delaying the inevitable. The good news, over 99% of us will survive with very little symptoms or danger of succumbing to the infection.

Carry on folks.


Well the post above might win the dumb award of the day. Not EVERYONE is going to "get it" I am guessing your calculations are WAY low. Even if you are correct 3,280,000 DEAD will be COMPLETLY an unacceptable disaster.

Can you also comment on how many will be permanently maimed?

Ya lets just throw our hands in the air and give up it's inevitable.
Anyone not wearing a mask at this point is an ass.

Face masks

by DrSteve, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 11:45 (28 days ago) @ midalake

"dumb"????
Hmmm....

BTW: I said "exposed" ........ and "maimed" is a lay term used to describe a result of an injury.

Well, live and die by statistics and uninformed opinions.

BTW: there are, perhaps, people with more knowledge and medical background than you have. Never a good practice to decline information given by an expert (i.e., me)

If, in 2 years, you have not been "exposed" to the Covid then I will also predict that YOU will be the only one who hasn't.

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remember folks, we are supposed to believe....

by Bonnie, wherever you go, there you are..., Sunday, November 01, 2020, 11:57 (28 days ago) @ DrSteve

that because "Dr Steve" says he's an expert, then it must be so. Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack

remember folks, we are supposed to believe....

by DrSteve, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 12:16 (28 days ago) @ Bonnie

SO.... what part of this post do any of you not agree with?

"Secondly, whether you are comfortable with this fact or not, we will ALL , at some point, be exposed to the Covid-19. We are all just delaying the inevitable. The good news, over 99% of us will survive with very little symptoms or danger of succumbing to the infection"

I think perhaps this is the wrong message board for me to be on.
I was giving my expert medical opinion to you.
If you do not agree, fine. You don't have to.
....But name calling is quite uncalled for.

As medical specialist for over 35 years, and seeing quite a bit of mis-informed opinions here, I was only attempting to supply scientific, medical opinion to your message board.
I had ONE post and was already called "dumb" and a "quack"
Quite middle ages I would suggest.

I think I'll just leave you all to your own subjective opinions.
Good luck.

Dr Steve

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remember folks, we are supposed to believe....

by Timmac @, Steilacoom, WA, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 14:46 (28 days ago) @ DrSteve

Out of curiosity, what is your specialty? That does have some bearing on your expertise after all. President Trump’s current “specialist,” Dr. Atlas, is a radiologist, with no training or experience in either infectious disease or epidemiology, which makes his opinion way less “expert.” Just because someone has a fancy set of letters in back of his name, doesn’t mean he is qualified to give an expert opinion. For what it’s worth, I’m a retired board certified ER doc who practiced for 40+ years before retiring just in time to miss COVID-19.

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Me gusta....

by Bonnie, wherever you go, there you are..., Sunday, November 01, 2020, 15:47 (27 days ago) @ Timmac

.

remember folks, we are supposed to believe....

by Little Guy, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 18:15 (27 days ago) @ Timmac

Out of curiosity, what is your specialty? That does have some bearing on your expertise after all. President Trump’s current “specialist,” Dr. Atlas, is a radiologist, with no training or experience in either infectious disease or epidemiology, which makes his opinion way less “expert.” Just because someone has a fancy set of letters in back of his name, doesn’t mean he is qualified to give an expert opinion.

Here’s an anecdote.

I knew a person who was “Dr Smith”. Not his real surname.). When he travelled or stayed in hotels he insisted on “Dr”.

When asked what kind of doctor he was, he said he was a retired doctor.

When pressed by someone asking what kind of doctor he had bee, he said, “I was a good doctor.”

He had a PhD in political science. :)

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remember folks, we are supposed to believe....

by Sunlight Dancer, Monday, November 02, 2020, 02:48 (27 days ago) @ DrSteve
edited by Sunlight Dancer, Monday, November 02, 2020, 03:20

"I was giving my expert medical opinion to you."

Unless your field is epidemiology, your expert medical opinion may as well be from a chiropractor. Don't get me wrong- I love my chiropractor but I wouldn't take his advice on R-naught contagion calculations.

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Yes

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 12:30 (28 days ago) @ Bonnie

that because "Dr Steve" says he's an expert, then it must be so. Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack

That was uncalled for. I can confirm that Dr. Steve is indeed a doctor, though I don't believe epidemiology is his specialty. But there is no reason to be disrespectful towards him, please.

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you may remove my post please

by Bonnie, wherever you go, there you are..., Sunday, November 01, 2020, 15:45 (27 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I tried editing it out, but no joy. I cant find how to delete it otherwise.

Thank you Rob.

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nah

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 18:01 (27 days ago) @ Bonnie

I tried editing it out, but no joy. I cant find how to delete it otherwise.

Thank you Rob.

It's more hassle than it's worth. I just want people to treat each other respectfully.

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nah

by Bonnie, wherever you go, there you are..., Monday, November 02, 2020, 08:46 (27 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I understand and hear you.

I only asked because I noted Rigamarta's "blow-hard" post disappeared tout suite and figured maybe mine should also.

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nah

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Monday, November 02, 2020, 11:48 (27 days ago) @ Bonnie

I understand and hear you.

I only asked because I noted Rigamarta's "blow-hard" post disappeared tout suite and figured maybe mine should also.

I verified the claim that DrSteve is indeed a doctor, but it's not up me to reveal any further information about him that he himself doesn't reveal. Regardless of the correctness or not of his claims, he's been treated very poorly by several readers, and that makes me feel bad for him. Not how I like to see anyone treated here.

nah

by midalake @, Monday, November 02, 2020, 12:49 (27 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

.


I verified the claim that DrSteve is indeed a doctor, but it's not up me to reveal any further information about him that he himself doesn't reveal. Regardless of the correctness or not of his claims, he's been treated very poorly by several readers, and that makes me feel bad for him. Not how I like to see anyone treated here.

Since I fired the first shot, let me end it.

I just take great exception to the 99% are going to "make it" message. It will CLEARLY be a larger death rate than that. Also 20 years ago my mother lost about 20% of her lung function from a VIRAL Pneumonia. She was in her mid 60's and it ended her active lifestyle. How many millions will this happen too?

History will record what really happens here, but "experts" should wait for when history and reality are one.

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nah

by Timmac @, Steilacoom, WA, Monday, November 02, 2020, 17:27 (26 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Is it not appropriate to ask his specialty? If he is an infectious disease doc his opinion would bear a lot of weight, if he is a dermatologist, quite a lot less. There are plenty of other folks who use the term doctor who would, in my opinion, specifically related to infectious disease, be no more qualified than "civilians," for example naturopaths and chiropractors. As I retired Emergency Doc, I am somewhat qualified as we frequently had to practice isolation techniques during other similar, but way less serious, incidents.

nah

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Monday, November 02, 2020, 18:34 (26 days ago) @ Timmac

:megusta:

Yeah!

by Quadra Paul @, Monday, November 02, 2020, 18:35 (26 days ago) @ Timmac

If he calls himself "Doctor" and makes these outrageous statements, then he needs to explain what that "Doctor" actually means! You're right Tim!

nah

by jay @, Monday, November 02, 2020, 19:00 (26 days ago) @ Timmac

Is it not appropriate to ask his specialty?

It is entirely appropriate to ask about his specialty. And he's entirely within his rights to refuse to disclose it. But if he wants to persuade us that he's knowledgeable about this subject, then he should provide his credentials. Otherwise we have to assume he's just blowing smoke.

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nah

by Timmac @, Steilacoom, WA, Monday, November 02, 2020, 19:49 (26 days ago) @ jay

Is it not appropriate to ask his specialty?


It is entirely appropriate to ask about his specialty. And he's entirely within his rights to refuse to disclose it. But if he wants to persuade us that he's knowledgeable about this subject, then he should provide his credentials. Otherwise we have to assume he's just blowing smoke.

Or maybe just inhaling it.:smoking:

nah

by Ironwood @, Monday, November 02, 2020, 22:15 (26 days ago) @ jay

Is it not appropriate to ask his specialty?


It is entirely appropriate to ask about his specialty. And he's entirely within his rights to refuse to disclose it. But if he wants to persuade us that he's knowledgeable about this subject, then he should provide his credentials. Otherwise we have to assume he's just blowing smoke.

He's put his foot in it by describing himself as an expert. So what?
I'm definitely no expert, but I recognize nonsense when I see it.

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Face masks

by hromero ⌂ @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 12:11 (28 days ago) @ DrSteve

Your information "DrSteve" seems to contradict information I have read from many trusted sources and from friends I know who are in positions to be quite knowledgeable on the topic. Your claims lack any references to credible resources. Your claims are vague (who are the "we" who will "all" be exposed) considering that countries like New Zealand have zero infections https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/07/world/australia/new-zealand-coronavirus.html. How do you arrive at a 99% survival rate when current data seems to indicate that death rates are somewhere between 2-6% https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid. While Midalake may not have used the correct term, there are indeed many more people who survive Covid-19 but continue to suffer serious medical issues as a result. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

The percentage of people who have medical reasons for not wearing a mask are an extremely low percentage and they probably should be limiting their public exposure. My wearing of a mask isn't about being fearful, but of being respectful of my fellow human beings and recognizing that we are strongest when we work together to solve problems rather than behaving in a selfish manner. I have read many articles and links from anti-maskers and I have yet to find any evidence that wearing masks, along with other reasonable precautions, does anything but help the vast majority of people.

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

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Face masks

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 12:28 (28 days ago) @ hromero

While I agree that Dr. Steve seems to provide some info that conflicts with what is now known about this damned virus, I can confirm that he is indeed a doctor, though I don't believe he's an epidemiologist.

Face masks

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Monday, November 02, 2020, 01:58 (27 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Like Timmac said, we would love to see what is specialty is/was as the info he posted is way off and this is not my opinion but what has been shared by real medical experts in the field, people that actually work in research and development of vaccines. So making the statements he made open him up to question as it sounded exactly like some of the kwacks we heard supporting some of the Trump solutions for the virus, like injecting bleach.

Face masks

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Monday, November 02, 2020, 01:53 (27 days ago) @ midalake

Sad to see people still having such ridiculous thoughts and thinking it is the truth.

Face masks

by Ironwood @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 12:44 (28 days ago) @ DrSteve

........ Also there are those who have already had the Covid and are not carriers and will not reinfect.

Maybe "those who have already had the Covid and are not carriers and will not reinfect" could carry a large sign around their neck with that message?

And how would they know that they are not carriers and will not reinfect?

Dr. Steve said so. He apparently has the jump on all the other thousands of epidemiologists who haven't yet figured out the virus.

Personally, if I see some maskless individual wearing Dr. Steve's sign, I will very definitely practice extreme physical distancing.

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Face masks

by hromero ⌂ @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 12:50 (28 days ago) @ Ironwood

:megusta:

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

Face masks

by Amiga de Montreal @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 13:03 (28 days ago) @ Ironwood

Face masks

by jay @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 16:02 (27 days ago) @ DrSteve

OK I'll bite.

There are those who simply cannot wear a mask for various reasons

Please elaborate. What kind of conditions would preclude wearing a mask? I would think that if a person's respiratory system was so compromised that they couldn't mask up then they shouldn't even be out in public in the middle of a pandemic. I would argue that the vast majority who claim medical reasons for not wearing a mask are being less than truthful.

Also there are those who have already had the Covid and are not carriers and will not reinfect

Recent articles suggest that immunity may be short-lived. Some people have been infected twice.

The good news, over 99% of us will survive with very little symptoms or danger of succumbing to the infection.

Um, no. The mortality rate for those infected has held at just over 3% for many months. Many have had lingering problems long after recovery. I don't know, and neither do you, how long those problems will last.

Face masks

by Fuceneh @, Sunday, November 01, 2020, 17:58 (27 days ago) @ DrSteve

Lol
You should be one of Orangeheads medical experts.....maybe you are?:wtf:

Face masks

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Monday, November 02, 2020, 01:51 (27 days ago) @ DrSteve

Wrong in so many ways! I can almost hear Trump speaking reading this. You sure need to change your name on here as you definitively are not a doctor.

Face masks

by albuschhoff@gmail.com, Sunday, November 15, 2020, 14:53 (14 days ago) @ Wonderful Wino

His statements are incorrect . There is significant evidence that wearing masks does protect you from people who aren’t,t wearing them, Social distancing helps protect you from them also. I assume a person who is not wearing in a public place is ignorant, immature, or sociopathic. I am afraid that it is up to all of us to do want the government can,t do. Avoid and don’t,t do business with people who don’t,t wear masks. shunning may be more effective than fining.