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!!IMAGES OF THE PROYECT IN BARRA!!!!

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 15:49 (2491 days ago)

[image]

This image is a copi of the plane.

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the copi of the plane on color

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some explication about.

and the name not will be barra de potosi. will be "PUERTO POTOSI"

this information we get for the law of Transparency in mexico. we need move now

Tours in barra de potosi

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!!IMAGES OF THE PROYECT IN BARRA!!!!

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 16:05 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

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!!IMAGES OF THE PROYECT IN BARRA!!!!

by judi in OKlahoma @, where I am, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 17:59 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

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No No No !!!
Make it stop Avi!
Where does the information come from this time?
And again ... what can WE do?

¡Espero otra vez! Las fotos no ha aparece!

by Harry, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 16:09 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

¡Espero otra vez! Las fotos no ha aparece!

[image]

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!!IMAGES OF THE PROYECT IN BARRA(in my facebook)!!!!

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 16:17 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

Ok I dont know why the pictures is not here but In my facebook is the images

you search me in facebook my name is Avimael Cadena and if some body can download the images and upload here thanks so much!

Aqui Esta....

by Harry, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 16:26 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

[image]

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Aqui Esta....

by frostbite ⌂ @, Hamilton MT, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 16:28 (2491 days ago) @ Harry

Another tragedy in the making!

Aqui Esta....

by allen @, Pacific Northwest, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 16:44 (2491 days ago) @ frostbite

I feel confident that the people of La Barra are up to this challenge. They have been conducting a number of ecological studies in the area and their machetes are sharp.

Is this what these old eyes are seeeing?

by Gringo Viejo @, Kansas/Zihuatanejo, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 17:20 (2491 days ago) @ Harry

A cruise ship pier, golf courses AND eco-tourism on Playa Valintin?

Not to throw ice on the part but some might be surprised that some La Barra residents are looking forward to selling out for "big bucks" and I mean locals.

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I see you seee

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 18:15 (2491 days ago) @ Gringo Viejo

Not to throw ice on the part but some might be surprised that some La Barra residents are looking forward to selling out for "big bucks" and I mean locals.

[image]

Yes, that's an old tragic story along this coast where many of those folks eventually end up with nothing but bad health and no friends, squandering their money on "all those things they never had before", only to find out the hard way those "big bucks" weren't so big after all. It's shameful how some greedy and influential folks prey upon the ignorance and base instincts of others. It's no mistake that Guerrero is one of the poorest and most undereducated places on the planet. Poverty and ignorance, along with fear, have long been the favorite tools of greedy and powerful oppressors.

Please never forget that in the culture of this country's original inhabitants, land is communally owned, not privately. That was the same problem the descendents of Europeans had with the indigenous folks in the USA, too. Yes, Native Americans were Communists before anyone coined the word! Only in the USA the European descendents there killed off more of the original inhabitants than other European descendents did here, where the indigenous people from Chihuahua to Chiapas are still suffering and being dispossessed of their lands little by little for their natural riches. That's why so many come to the cities and migrate up north where folks now perjoratively call them "illegals".

Troncones

by JBinCT, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 21:34 (2491 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Once upon a time wasn't Troncones ejido land and a cooperative village?

Troncones

I guess timing is everything since you don't hear anyone bemoaning the 'fate' of Troncones.

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Troncones

by LadyM in Zihua @, Zihuatanejo, Mexico, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 22:16 (2491 days ago) @ JBinCT

The best I can remember Troncones was never a village until after the building of homes, restaurants, and hotels started. La Barra de Potosi is a village now and they are looking to destroy it. To me there is a big difference. I may be wrong and if so someone correct what I remember.

--
[image]
www.juliostours.com

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Troncones

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 23:44 (2491 days ago) @ JBinCT

As usual, your knowledge of local life is very limited and doesn't jibe with your mental image. Many of those ejiditarios who sold out have long ago spent the money they got, and now they're in the same boat again, except now they can't afford to buy more land in their village for their growing families, so they move to other non-tourist communities where you don't see the poverty they live in. Believe it or not, most people here don't aspire to be maids and gardeners and servants for wealthy tourists.

Plantation mentality

by JBinCT, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 06:34 (2491 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Wow! That is certainly a paternalistic approach to your fellow citizens; take away their property rights because they aren't capable of making the right choices. Kind of a plantation mentality in fact.

Like almost everyone who has visited Barra I have no desire to see it become a cruise port/golf course/Ixtapa. But the members of the ejido/community should have a say in the future of Barra and one way they can do so is through the exercise (or not) of their collective and individual property rights. I mentioned Troncones because that is exactly what happened there and while Troncones of 2011 is vastly different from Troncones of 1990 I don't see calls on this board for boycotting Troncones or pictures of the way it used to be before development 'ruined' it.

As an aside, the granting of property rights to 'untitled owners' is a popular subject in developmental economics, led by someday-Nobel Prize winner Hernando de Soto of Peru, as equity in untitled property represents a tremendous source of untapped capital/wealth for impoverished people.

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Yankee mentality

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 08:33 (2491 days ago) @ JBinCT

Obviously you ascribe to me attributes that you imagine a Southerner should have that simply have nothing to do with reality or with me.

No one mentioned anything about taking away anyone's property rights. More and more your participation here takes on the aspect of a troll stirring the pot, albeit a strikingly insipid one.
:stirpot:

And so far, Troncones hasn't been sold to developers of megaprojects like what is planned for Barra de Potosí, so those ejiditarios who still live in Troncones still have some lands left for themselves and some growing space. Barra de Potosí isn't an ejido. They have no communal lands. Major difference. Another major difference is that the government is involved with trying to wipe out Barra de Potosí as we know it for the benefit of a few influyentes, where in Troncones there has been practically no intrusion by the government, and as far as I know, no plans to build any megaprojects.

It is up to the community, not the tourists

by JBinCT, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 10:00 (2490 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

As Laura points out, it is up to the community of La Barra to decide how to respond to development pressures. And that is my only point, that the future of La Barra should be shaped to the largest extent possible by the current residents, all of whom should have the freedom to make their own decisions. The ecological issues may help anti-development efforts as may the current slow-down in tourism. Let's hope so. La Barra is a special place and we enjoy our visits there, but should the residents decide to take the money and run we will understand completely as our desire to spend a day or two a year there does not trump their right to try and make a better life- as they define it- for themselves. If expressing that thought makes me a troll, so be it.

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Co-responsibility

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 10:27 (2490 days ago) @ JBinCT

As Laura points out, it is up to the community of La Barra to decide how to respond to development pressures. And that is my only point, that the future of La Barra should be shaped to the largest extent possible by the current residents, all of whom should have the freedom to make their own decisions.

That was your only point? Sure didn't sound like it to me. You addressed me with insinuations that weren't said by me, including that I believe Troncones has been ruined.

...should the residents decide to take the money and run we will understand completely as our desire to spend a day or two a year there does not trump their right to try and make a better life- as they define it- for themselves. If expressing that thought makes me a troll, so be it.

That was not the thought you expressed previously.

So are you insinuating that tourists who visit a particular place should feel no share of responsibility for the consequences a community suffers in the name of tourist development? If a modern resort and marina appeared in Barra de Potosí, are you saying that even though you would miss the old village you would still patronize the new establishments there without the least degree of guilty conscience?

Seems to me doña Laura already contradicted some of your rather odd insinuations about what you believe I said or implied. Ouch!
:kicknuts:

Co-responsibility

by JBinCT, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 11:17 (2490 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I would suggest you re-read some posts as I never said you thought Troncones had been ruined. I also have said or insinuated nothing about my willingness to patronize any new developments in La Barra. I have been consistent in stating that those who own the land have the right to do with it what they wish within the law, including sale. That is as true in Mexico as it is in the US or Canada. To attempt to deny that right/opportunity because one does not like what may be done is wrong. The moral way to stop development is to pay a fair price for the land yourself, or in partnership with others, thereby allowing the owner to sell but keeping the property away from developers. Nature Conservancy and others follow this approach.

As to insinuations about your post:

" Many of those ejiditarios who sold out have long ago spent the money they got, and now they're in the same boat again, except now they can't afford to buy more land in their village for their growing families, so they move to other non-tourist communities where you don't see the poverty they live in. Believe it or not, most people here don't aspire to be maids and gardeners and servants for wealthy tourists."

If that isn't a criticism of those who exercised their right to sell in Troncones- and by extension those who would sell in La Barra- then what is it?

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Co-responsibility

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 12:23 (2490 days ago) @ JBinCT

The moral way to stop development is to pay a fair price for the land yourself, or in partnership with others, thereby allowing the owner to sell but keeping the property away from developers. Nature Conservancy and others follow this approach.

No, the moral way is not to stop development but to plan it carefully so that it benefits the community as a whole. Not by allowing unscrupulous developers to scrape the land bare to put up luxury accommodations for outsiders, sell out and move on with no thought to the consequences of their actions since morality is not yet a part of the capitalist psyche. That's why building and zoning codes need to be implemented and enforced with consideration for the local community first and foremost.

As to insinuations about your post:

" Many of those ejiditarios who sold out have long ago spent the money they got, and now they're in the same boat again, except now they can't afford to buy more land in their village for their growing families, so they move to other non-tourist communities where you don't see the poverty they live in. Believe it or not, most people here don't aspire to be maids and gardeners and servants for wealthy tourists."

If that isn't a criticism of those who exercised their right to sell in Troncones- and by extension those who would sell in La Barra- then what is it?

Sociological observation, experience and enlightenment. :brilliant:

Co-responsibility

by The Mac Man, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 14:57 (2490 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I dont know who is heading up this "project" but it sure seems like a bad time to be developing land in guererro.

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Co-responsibility

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 15:17 (2490 days ago) @ The Mac Man

If you look though the thread, you will see it is basically "the gubbment".

If you want a comparison, look to any "stimulus" project that got foisted off on folks North of the border in the last few years.

The entire area of I/Z (including Potosi) has Two Industries....Hotels, and Fishing. To add more Hotels and Fishing to an already depressed area is probably not so smart from a business stance, but very smart from a "fill your pockets with kickbacks" one.

I would be very curious to see if the "project" even got fully completed.

As conceptualized, with an open anchorage, and no breakwater to protect the marina slips I don't think it is any sort of a go.

JMO

Keith

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Co-responsibility

by LadyM in Zihua @, Zihuatanejo, Mexico, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 18:03 (2490 days ago) @ Labrat

You and I certainly see this issue the same. When hotels aren't filled and fishing boats sit idle, and cruise ships are less and less, it makes no sense to do this project. How did we get so smart.?

--
[image]
www.juliostours.com

Let's hear an AMEN to that-

by Gringo Viejo @, Kansas/Zihuatanejo, Thursday, February 17, 2011, 10:17 (2489 days ago) @ LadyM in Zihua

AMEN!

Co-responsibility

by Craig Scheiner, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 23:23 (2490 days ago) @ ZihuaRob


[quote]So are you insinuating that tourists who visit a particular place should feel no share of responsibility for the consequences a community suffers in the name of tourist development?
[/quote]

Just an interjection here - it's not tourists who are calling for this development. It's the Mexican government through FONATUR. The tourists have been unanimous on this issue. We don't want development here.

Craig

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Co-responsibility

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 23:47 (2490 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

Actually I was alluding to a larger social question. Too many folks don't even consider the local community or ecology when choosing a vacation destination beyond their personal comforts, and similarly they inadvertantly feed the monster that rapes places like La Barra by not doing so. I'm always hoping for folks to be more awake, alert and conscientious of the impact of their decisions. We ALL need to share a little responsibility for helping to make the world a better place instead of sleepwalking our way through life focused on ourselves. Wouldn't that be nice?

Co-responsibility

by Craig Scheiner, Thursday, February 17, 2011, 23:48 (2489 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Unfortunately, I think the crux of your observation is true. Personally, I've never considered those things when deciding where to vacation.

Craig

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The people of La Barra don't want this project

by Laura ⌂ @, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 09:22 (2491 days ago) @ Gringo Viejo

Of course it's not a surprise that there are some (few) in La Barra as there always are in such situations, that don't understand this possible negative impact on their community...INCLUDING...on themselves personally. This is always the case.

The important thing to understand is that in the case of La Barra the majority of the people are conscious of the negative components of such an event and wish it to not happen. They love their life and they love La Barra de Potosi...the place and the community which are deeply tied together.

This is evidenced by the excellent turnout and the opinions voiced in the meeting yesterday organized by the comisario for the purpose of informing the community about this project. The opinions expressed were definitively in the interests of stopping it. The emotions were also clear...deep concern, anger, sadness, fear and readiness to act. In the meeting that involved I think more than a hundred people - and in the middle of a work day- I spoke with only one person who believed we should accept it. He owns land on a farm elsewhere, is getting old...stopped fishing some time ago, and owns an enramada on natural flow area of the lagoon. I know of another who speaks positively about the opportunity to sell. Though he has a deep history with the area, he doesn't live in La Barra, is quite well off economically and has often been in conflict with locals in the village. He owns an enramada, also is getting old, tired of being at the enramada and wants to retire, thinks he will make a killing etc. He is not considered by people in the village to be a member of the local community contrary to the impression many who know him from his enramada may have. No offense to him...he is a friend too. Just trying to clarify background.

La Barra actually has a fighting chance. There has been much work done through these years since learning of the Fonatur plan (7 years ago). Serious studies on behalf of La Barra by top level biologists, architects, ecologists, tzuname scientists, marine biologists have been done over the last 7 years. The outcome of their work has had such strength and positive outcome that in some cases they were published in respected professional journals. An alternative 'Eco-Tourism' developmant plan done for La Barra by students in the faculty of Architecture and Urbanism at la UAG in Chilpancingo as their thesis project as architects won first place in the national SEMARNAT contest for Eco-tourism projects (some in that contest were active projects in existence in Mexico).

The results of these works documented legally important things like the concentration of protected species of flora and fauna, danger in density type developments due to tzuname possibility and water table problems, devastation of healthy coral reefs etc...all issues protected by federal law. La Barra also has the support of the powerful federation of fishing coops which involves thousands of people up and down the coast, many of whom have already suffered the loss of their way of life due to taking it lying down when a project arrived. They are interested in the destruction of the fishing industry which would happen with this project. They have come to tell their story of devastated lives after the fact of such projects and to offer their support. The lessons are being absorbed here by the majority of people in La Barra.

Internationally respected environmental lawyers and ecologists are available to help. This may be a surprise for the powers that be, but it looks like La Barra is not going to just 'sell out' or take this passively. Though of course there will be a few who will sell...they won't matter. I say this not just as a reflection of my personal feelings, but after speaking with many of my neighbors and observing the meeting yesterday and the response of the people there.

By the way, the situation here is different than the history of Troncones. Troncones was ejido land. Many members of local ejidos often are not living on and working their land these days. Often ejido members in this area have long left the ejido project and are making their living elsewhere. That is the case in the ejidos I have had had contact with locally where they sometimes see their ejido parcel as an investment. Troncones ejido members decided to sell. You cannot be sure that those living in the settlement behind the beach there were even members of the ejido or if they were people who came later. As Lady M pointed out, it wasn't really a cohesive village community when the passing of the ejido to private property happened. It was mostly an empty beach. Another point to notice is that this project would devastate the area ecologically. The development in Troncones is very different in this regard - no pier, no dredging of an estuary, no putting three 18 hole golf courses on top of dunes and mangrove areas etc.... Apples and oranges.

La Barra is a cohesive community with a strong sense of community and history together bonded deeply to the land here. La Barra has never been an ejido. This is private property owned by the individual community members. The people of La Barra are connected by ownership and family to the enramada restaurants and have always had open access to the ocean and lagoon. It has been integral to their way of life and they have never shown interest in selling it (with the exception of a very few who represent special circumstances).

A very few are just getting older and tired of being fishermen and already own land elsewhere. They mistakenly believe that the misery payment they'll get will be plenty to start a new life there.

Recognizing the mistake in believing the government's talk of economic benefit to locals is not paternalistic but realistic. How can they see something they have never experienced?...How can they apply planning tools they have never had occasion to learn? They are unable to balance their long term planning view sometimes because of lacking reference points so many take for granted when they have enjoyed relatively advanced quality education and experience in such things. To deny the difference is in fact either naive or in some cases may be manipulative. In fact the very existence of ejidos is due to the recognition of this reality and was meant to protect the peasants from quickly losing their land after the agrarian reform laws passed it to them after the revolution. Any review of studies done to learn of what happens to communities displaced by mega-projects will show you that the norm is just as Rob described...devastated lives, quick loss of the misery payment, poverty, immersion in alcoholism, drug addiction, divorce etc.

Those who organized the effective resistance in Zihua, the federation of fishing coops, nationally recognized biologists and other scientists, nationally respected architects and experienced and respected environmental lawyers and ecologists are all offering their support La Barra. With all this support and with the attitudes of deep love for this place and this community, the cohesion, strength and skills of the people of the community of La Barra, I believe this will not be an easy ecocide on the part of fonatur. Perhaps it might even be stopped this time.

The support of the people of this forum and all who lurk it...accessing the invaluable information here to plan your trips... will also be of great importance. Please express your views about such a development and about the importance of saving La Barra! This highly trafficked forum is read.

Hasta pronto,
Laura
Casa del Encanto B&B Barra de Potosi

The people of La Barra don't want this project

by nodak, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 09:47 (2491 days ago) @ Laura

Laura -- thank you for your very informative post. Do you know what happens when some locals refuse to sell their land? Does the government have the right to "take" it and pay them "fair market value"? I'm trying to understand how the project could get off the ground if most of the local private owners are against it.

Neither do some of the regular visitors.

by Jo in Vancouver, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 10:16 (2490 days ago) @ nodak

We've been visiting La Barra for 7 years and this year brought 4 new people to stay..who have already said they plan to go back IF La Barra stays relatively the same. We all realize that villages grow and change. When we first visited part of the road in was dirt.. now it's paved. Houses have been improved, the library has become a reality. These are beneficial changes..not a wholesale wipe out of the lagoon, the enramadas and the village. I'm not sure how many $$'s we put into the economy each visit but we eat out almost every nightin one of the village "cafes" or an enramada, we drink lots of margarita's and beer, we do a lagoon tour, go fishing with a local, do a boat ride around Los Morros with a local, ride the pasejero, visit El Refugio, have a least one musical interlude from a wandering musician in the enramada and even try to buy things from the beach vendors. I'm sure in the scheme of things what we spend is not big bucks but we certainly wouldn't be coming to La Barra if it's turned into the FONATUR vision! What I can't understand is with the extremely low vacancy rates in Ixtapa why are they planning another mega development? It would seem to me that the hotel owners in Ixtapa would be up in arms over this proposal as it seems aimed at a similar market.. golfers, condos, marinas.
I know previously an address was posted where we as visitors to Mexico could write to express our concerns..but of course it's on the old board and I'm hoping someone will post a link here. Will try to help from cold rainy Vancouver to preserve a bit of paradise in Barra de Potosi. Our thoughts are with you in this fight.

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expropriation

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 10:53 (2490 days ago) @ nodak

Just like in the USA, in Mexico the federal government can expropriate lands using that old well-worn phrase "for the greater good", or some such malarkey. In the case of the ejidos it was a bit trickier because the ejidos were one of the results of that minor civil disturbance we call La Revolución Mexicana, and their existence harks back to the concept of communal lands by indigenous cultures dating back many thousands of years.

In Zihuatanejo after years of litigation the ejiditarios won the legal battle against the federal government and were compensated with new lands in various undeveloped areas (not cash payments), including La Ropa and La Majagua. Of course, having to wait several decades for their compensation caused quite a few hardships, especially considering that because the government stalled for so long, many of the ejiditarios died off or became quite elderly, and of course their families grew in the meantime, and this led to desperation by many surviving offspring with no communal land left in their family. I won't even go into that depressing aspect of the social problem.

My personal point of view is that the purpose of any government-planned development should be to benefit the community, but in this project it is strikingly clear that the local communities are a minor and inconsequential consideration while personal profit for the influential is the obvious primary motive and consideration. Communities all up and down the Costa Grande of Guerrero as well as in Acapulco have come to know this reality as the state and federal governments as well as various influential people have tried to dispossess many communities of their lands and natural resources, not entirely without success. We have learned from past mistakes and are better prepared to deal with future attempts against our patrimony, which is where the natural resistance and distrust you are seeing against Fonatur comes from.

That's why I always say: ¡Zihuatanejo primero para los zihuatanejenses!
:vivamexico:

expropriation

by Gringo Viejo @, Kansas/Zihuatanejo, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 16:25 (2490 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Ah, yes, ti comes back to me now--the right of imminent domain! Originally intended only for public projects, i.e., schools, roads, etc. The government decides the "project" is for the publick good, comes in an assesses the value of the property (usually an at least fair market value), pays the owner and takes the property.

Of course some of these projects are of very questionable "public good" like the Truman Resovoir in MO that "took" my grandfather's lands and paid him the current agriculterual fair market value. The "public good" was supposed to be for flood control, recreations, etc. Today it is doubtful it would ever fly becuase an Environmental Impact Statement would be required.

Interesting that some of the land taken for the "public good" ended up next to lands bought up in advance adjacent to the public land and ihat land increased in value many times over when the Truman Resovoir was completed.

But, can you believe it, the Right of Imminent Domain has been used to take land for the use by developers for mega-real estate projects? Seems like it happens the same way the world over.

The people of La Barra don't want to get f****d either

by Harry, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 10:06 (2490 days ago) @ Laura

Thank you for your thoughts Laura. Please continue to keep us advised and perhaps there's some way that we can help. Looks like both Barra and the Zihua Bay scenarios are completely linked.

Perhaps one of the first things to do is to fight for the ejido monies that should have been paid so many years ago and make this very public in all ways. This would serve several purposes..

1) It demonstrates that Fonatour after all their negotiations did not live up its agreements and therefore cannot be trusted.

2) It demonstrates that any who sell out without acting in the communal interest are likely to either be paid a relative pittance or not be paid at all anyway.

3) If the money does actually materialize it could be used to fund further battles if need be, especially if a substantial part is kept to be used as a trust, which I suppose an Ejido effectively is or was intended to be after the Mexican revolution.

The people of La Barra don't want this project

by ElAleman, Friday, February 18, 2011, 02:44 (2489 days ago) @ Laura

Hi Laura,

Maybe you are right; you are talking about what has been done but the question is:
Who takes the banner???
Talking among us does not help; what we need are actions! Let me tell it in Spanish:
Estas gastando mucha saliva sin conclusiones y propuestas; si eres tan sabia entonces porque no nos juntamos y hagamos un plan de trabajo pero ya !!!!

I know you are back now in the States and you do not know the latest details.
Today (meanwhile yesterday) we had a meeting with the major of Petatlan and he said that he does not know anything on that issue; we showed him with documents and interviews he gave, that we do not believe his words. I insisted that the plan D.G.P.-G01, dated march 24, 2010 should be exhibited to the public to start to talk about facts; up to now all are assuming. What we need are facts and based on that to work out an action plan to defend Barra de Potosi. We set up already a "cause" on facebook

No a la destrucción de Barra de Potosi

where we uploaded a lot of documents which may help us to stop the project. Unfortunately all the documents we found are in Spanish and I think it is too much work to translate everything into English. What we need is guidance how to proceed. How can we work together with the people who are involved in Zihua. How to contact all the organizations who may assist us. Any idea? Any concrete proposal??? But let's stop talking and start with actions, please !!!

Hasta la próxima
Eugenio

Villas-Tuparaiso - A Home Away From Home

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The people of La Barra don't want this project

by Laura ⌂ @, Friday, February 18, 2011, 11:14 (2488 days ago) @ ElAleman

Hi Eugene,

Information posted here of course does not preclude that other things are being done off-forum. This is not necessarily the place to detail the organization happening within the village. Please don't assume the organization and a definite plan is not being formed. Talking with the key people in the village leadership is the place to be informed about this.

Some was discussed at the community meeting where I know Rita was present last Tuesday. She might not have heard or remembered or transmitted all of this to you. In fact there are definite measures that were discussed and that are happening with regard to organizing the leadership of the village. This forum is not necessarily the place to detail all of it.

For the present, soe of the iformation I have...leadership will include all the representatives of the various groups (all the fishing coops, ACs, enramadas, schools and other) led by a small selection among them including the comisario - all locals. People are well aware that there will be confusion, negativity and misinformation planted. There will be attempts to buy off leadership. For that reason leadership will not reside with two or three people only. Rita will remember that it was the voiced opinion of several at that meeting that the Municipal President would react in exactly the way he did. The plan (partly)mentioned at our community meeting included going to speak with him and being ready to hear him say exactly what he did. It was also mentioned that the community has access to the complete and up to date copy of the Fonatur plan obtained throught he Transparency Act which will be presented and discussed at another community meeting soon. Meanwhile please attend the meeting on the 26th. I'm sure Rita has told you about it after it was discussed at the community meeting or that you knew previously.

To reiterate...a plan of action has already been discussed, will continue to be discussed as it continues to take form and is already in action. At this time when unity is the most important factor, you might want to talk with neighbors (and listen) before assuming and voicing your concerns in an offense way. In my experience, the villagers have the tendency to simply withdraw silently if they feel they are being insulted or not being listened to. However, Your respectfully expressed insights and ideas will be welcomed and listened to by the village people involved in this organizing. Talk with the comisario and the presidents of the coops and you can find out more. This is a crucial time to avoid divisiveness.

I doubt most of them will have access to a facebook page so personal contact may be preferable in order to inform yourself of what is being done inside the village.

The people of La Barra don't want this project

by ElAleman, Friday, February 18, 2011, 11:40 (2488 days ago) @ Laura

... otra vez Laura
te voy a escribir en español; ya te dije que no gastes tanta saliva. No es necesario que nos demuestres que sabes hablar y escribir. No queremos ya sermones; lo que necesitamos son acciones y hechos !!!
Y perdón si te lo digo: no saludes con sombrero ajeno!

Que bueno que tienes mucha documentación; pero que estas haciendo con ella???
Hasta el momento nadie tiene el plano D.G.P.-G01, de fecha 24 de marzo de 2010 que es el que necesitamos y que ya lo solicité al edil en la junta y en una carta. Vamos a ver que pasa.

También he tratado de bajarlo de Internet pero resulta que no se deja; yo siento que esta bloqueada su descarga a proposito.

Proximos pasos: si el edil no entrega el plano en los próximos 5 días hay que solicitarlo oficialmente y hacer el procedimiento tal como lo describe Leonarda Reyes en su post en "amigos de playa blanca" de fecha 12 de Febrero.

A que quiero llegar; ya basta con suposiciones - hay que actuar ya!

Saludos Eugenio

The people of La Barra don't want this project

by Tess @, Friday, February 18, 2011, 11:36 (2488 days ago) @ ElAleman

I clicked through to your Facebook Cause and was surprised to see it wanted donations to a Vermont 5013C "People & Plants International, Inc." What's up with that. This is the sort of thing that makes me really nervous.

The people of La Barra don't want this project

by ElAleman, Friday, February 18, 2011, 11:57 (2488 days ago) @ Tess

Hi Tess,

to point it out: nobody is asking for donations. In order to stop talking and taking actions my son set up that facebook page; maybe he made an error when he made the configuration. We are not facebook experts. We don't want nobodys money. We want to live in peace enjoying the Barra, the Lagoon, the nature and everything that makes the paradise we are living in.

I really welcome constructive critics; so instead of sowing discord, please help us awaken the people in Mexico and abroad to the save Barra de Potosi.
Your input regarding the necessary changes regarding the donation issue are highly appreciated.

Eugene

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The people of La Barra don't want this project

by Laura ⌂ @, Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:24 (2488 days ago) @ ElAleman

PS: before I left and long prior to that in some cases, I've already given all the information I have regarding the names of people who can help us (detailing the work they have done and it's importance) and all their contact information to the presidents of the local fishing coop and the comisario and other coop presidents. Village leadership has that information.

The people of La Barra don't want this project

by ElAleman, Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:56 (2488 days ago) @ Laura

Perdon Laura,

Perdon, pero parece que no entiendes o no quieres entender el español.
No se trata "bajar una bioblioteca de información" del Internet, entregarlo a gente, que probablemente ni entiende su importancia, diciendole "ahora te toca"! Y tu que? Ya cumpliste? O que quieres decir Laura.
Como dicen en México: Ubicate por favor.

Lo que necesitamos es una ruta crítica que abarca todos los puntos, personas y responsabilidades y mas que nada el "follow up" para que no se "olviden" las cosas. Estamos en México!

Saludos Eugenio

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not a time for getting off track with this kind of thing

by Laura ⌂ @, Friday, February 18, 2011, 13:58 (2488 days ago) @ ElAleman

Of course I have no difficulty understanding your Spanish Eugene - though I know most people reading this will not have been able to understand the insults you are throwing at me for some unknown reason.

What I do puzzle over is this: What can be the motivation or purpose of your hostility? It's odd and certainly can only be counterproductive. Your responses are full of hatefulness. This is uncalled for and not helpful. I won't respond further to this kind of communication.

I hope that whatever the origen of these negative feelings you have will be sorted out and disappear so your insight and experience might be part of an effective community effort...without divisive aggression. Let's let this be the end of it.

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!!IMAGES OF THE PROYECT IN BARRA(in my facebook)!!!!

by Labrat ⌂ @, The Roosterfish Foundation, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 19:03 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

I popped them into my Flickr account and re-sized them for y'all.

I note that while they seem to have rendered in a concrete breakwater/marina the long sweeping pier from the point of the headland to the South in the past rendering has disappeared.

Keith


[image]

[image]

[image]

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!!IMAGES OF THE PROYECT IN BARRA(in my facebook)!!!!

by Zmon01 @, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 19:25 (2491 days ago) @ Labrat

Looks as though I better hone up on my golf game? Sheesh!:wtf:

Be careful what you ask for, you may get it---

by Gringo Viejo @, Kansas/Zihuatanejo, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 18:08 (2491 days ago) @ Sharkboy

a pier was proposed for Z which is an already developed area, not that the pier woou have been a good thing BUT it would have been a much "less bad" thing than going to La Barra and ruining/developing that area also.

OK, ready for the flames!

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Reading 101

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 18:19 (2491 days ago) @ Gringo Viejo

I believe you misunderstood Avi's warning. ;-)

Reading 101

by Gringo Viejo @, Kansas/Zihuatanejo, Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 16:35 (2490 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

My intent was to convey the following message:

Various communities over several years have been successful in blocking WalMart. But, alas, amide much cheering that "We beat WalMart" there were chagrined to see WalMart simply move outside their jurisdiction a short distance and build not only a WalMart but attract a lot of other "big box, chain retailers" and a whole new well shopped by locals commercial district. Alas, be cautious of what you ask for. Now the downtowns of those successful at blocking WalMart from their city is full of pawn shops, flea markets and just plain vacancy blight.

I am not against development per se but I am certainly against development of this type or anything close to this type in La Barra. Keep the developers in the 'developed" areas and out of the unspoiled areas. Sorry to say it is futile to think they can be stopped altogether.

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Reading 101

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Thursday, February 17, 2011, 13:11 (2489 days ago) @ Gringo Viejo

Oops, my bad. Guess I'll be taking that remedial reading class. ;-)

Reading into Puerto Potosi

by kayakdude, Tuesday, March 01, 2011, 12:29 (2477 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Unless it has been overlooked by me in this cascade of insightful messages...are the rest of you aware of the fact that Potosi and vicinity is a perennial red zone for dengue fever?
I've been doing business there as an ecotour kayak guide for 12 years. My partner Orlando Banuelos Nava has lived there all his life and tells me that everyone he knows has had a round or more with dengue.
Great tourist attraction, dengue.....
There are a number of fresh water bodies between the Guamilule headland and the radio towers due west of downtown Petatlan below laguna San Valentin, all of which support major insect life during and beyond the normal rainy season...pretty lush back there, lots of crocs, butterflies and birds too. You don't suppose that the proposed golf courses would be using that water for irrigation, do you? Not to mention all the mangrove a developer would have to (illegally) cut to clear the beach-back margins for construction to begin... and what about all the likely sites they'd bulldoze into that might be of great interest to the archaeologists along that same stretch?
This is the most hare-brained idea I've heard of in a long while.