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Discussion HELP TO BARRA. please READ THIS

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 16:17 (3954 days ago)

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I feel so bad. This is a fight and we need to be together everybody. I think you as resident foreigners or tourist visitors and we as local people love zihuatanejo and the beaches like they are now, without much contamination and almost virgin, with a lot of wild life and different plants, and beautiful ecosystems than can be deleted for human alteration (mega projects) and the only price it will have is contamination and it will finish with life, animals and plants. There will be poor people, fishermen without some place to go and without places for fishing to eat. I understand you fear to be deported and fail in the Mexican law.

The truth is FONATUR has violated and is violating a lot of laws, the truth is zihuatanejo is not convenient to deport foreigners because it will be a big scandal and zihua needs tourists. People deported only for support the nature and support the local people? Will not happened. THIS IS NOT A POLITICIAN PROBLEM. This is a nature problem. A wild life problem.

If I had money and I went to visit EU or CANADA and they deported me for helping the nature and supporting the poor local people, believe me… I would be proud to be deported, I would be happy. Because I would be a person full of help for our nature. Your country, our world. Your people. If somebody doesn’t want to help us.. it is ok. No problem. It is your choice and we respect this. But please don’t sow the doubt to the people that really want to help us to help the nature and the world, that want to help to conserve this beautiful place like it is now.

Or do you want zihua to be like Acapulco??? Full of violence, with a lot of population and contamination??? That our culture and traditions disappear? Remember tomorrow 4:00 pm at the city hall of zihuatanejo. I repeat: if you come it is excellent! if you don’t is ok. No problem. But don’t sow the doubt. Thanks for reading this.

This is a video of gorillaz band. for me it is symbolic for this problem. Please watch it.
Video of gorillaz. the mountain history

Feel the nature... Eco tours in Barra de Potosi

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Discussion HELP TO BARRA. please READ THIS

by zbee @, Zihuatanejo, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 17:07 (3954 days ago) @ Sharkboy

Ahhh, to be young and idealistic.....wait a minute, now I am old but still idealistic----I'll be there Avi
Steve

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¡Muy bien dicho!

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 20:06 (3953 days ago) @ Sharkboy

Oye, muy bien dicho, Avi. Desafortunadamente me consta que cuando vivas en zonas turísticas por tantos años como yo aprendas la fría realidad que no se puede contar con los turistas. Ellos van y vienen como un viento caprichoso. Si el pueblo de La Barra fuera destruido por un megaproyecto ellos simplemente buscarían otro lugar parecido donde irse. Es uno de los tristes verdades del turismo. Quisiera que fueran las cosas diferentes. Pero estás en lo correcto de arriesgarse por tus principios. Esa clase de gente como tú es la que nos hace mucha falta en lugar de la gente apática de que sobramos. Entonces ojalá que nunca te calles y que sigas en la lucha para defender tus principios y alcanzar tus sueños.

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¡Muy bien dicho!

by Fran @, Evanston, IL, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 20:48 (3953 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

I think it is true, Avi, that people who come as visitors, like Rob says, they do come to visit and they do go back to their homes. But that does not mean that we do not care about your village. Or that we do not think about you and the people of Barra when we are at our own homes far away.

I think that los norteamericanos try to think about what we should do and what the government of Mexico says that it is legal for us to do. It is a hard problem for us to solve. You can read on Rob's board that we have fights about it and we wonder what is right. It is a hard problem.

Please, do not make too hard a judgment on us. Even if we are at our homes away from Zihuatanejo or, if we are in Zihuatanejo with you, we think that maybe it is too big a problem for us to demonstrate along with you, even so, we worry about the future of your home and we will do what we can to support what the people of your village want.

¡Muy bien dicho!

by cd69 @, Winnipeg,MB,Canada, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 20:57 (3953 days ago) @ Fran

Well said Fran!I don't think a single one of us that won't be in that march by decision isn't willing to contribute in the best fashion they can and we all support the cause.A march may be a great way for the locals but certainly not the only way or necccesarily the best way either.Best of luck to all tomorrow!

¡Muy bien dicho!

by nikki, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 22:01 (3953 days ago) @ Fran

All of us must stand together all over this planet earth to say no to those who think only of money and not of what is going to bring life to this planet. If i were in Zihuatanejo i would be honored to be apart of this. I am already saddened by the overbuilding on La ropa beach and in the hills above it. Please do not destroy Barra. It is a beautiful gem that needs to be lovingly cared for by it's residents. Stay strong!Remember that the people united will never be defeated!

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¡Muy bien dicho!

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 23:17 (3953 days ago) @ Fran

Hey fran. yes there is a lot of ways to help. thanks and dont worry.

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¡Muy bien dicho!

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 23:13 (3953 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Hey, gracias señor Rob. aunque me pase unas dos horas con el diccionario traduciendolo correctamente jejeje pero me alegra. es bueno que nos ayuden. y existen muchas mas maneras de ayudarnos. no presisamente de ir ala marcha.
pero nimodo. hay jente que solo le gusta disfrutar un rato y ya. zihuatanejo y sus playas no son parte de sus vidas, pero todos por una causa

Discussion HELP TO BARRA. please READ THIS

by islandgirl @, Cowichan Valley, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 20:09 (3953 days ago) @ Sharkboy

Ahhh, Sharkboy! Sadly, we got home today, but if we were still there we would be with you tomorrow! We will be thinking of you and hope Barra will have lots of support.
Thank you so very very much for showing us your Barra. Your passion and enthusiasm really made our visit special. We hope to return and wish you well in your struggles.
D&T
PS Careful of your head!

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Bill @, Chicago, Illinois, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 21:32 (3953 days ago) @ Sharkboy

You're asking foreigners to involve themselves in illegal acts. If you yourself are not a Mexican citizen you may be subject to deportation without permission to return - and I'd support that action of the government. If you love Mexico and want to live in Zihua or the area then learn to obey the law and respect the country. If you disagree with the law find other ways to support Mexicans who will seek to change what they don't like. Contribute money to hire lawyers to fight the issue. Participate in letter-writing and sending emails. Etc., etc. Don't presume to dictate your foreigner-held beliefs on the local community where you're a visitor because you think you know better than Mexicans do. Don't be the example of the Ugly American, Ugly Canadian or Ugly whatever nation you're from. That's my 2 cents worth.

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by judi in OKlahoma, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 22:05 (3953 days ago) @ Bill

Um, are you talking to sharkboy here?

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The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Laura ⌂ @, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 22:23 (3953 days ago) @ Bill

Are you talking to Avi? He's well known to be a native of Barra de Potosi.

Your interpretation of the law pertaining to foreigner participation in the political affairs of the country as being relevant in this case is debatable apparently. I guess that has been made clear already. Each can study the issue and make their own decision. I personally think that the crowd will be well filled with local Mexican people who are outraged by the privatization of their beaches and the infringement on their culture and livelihood this type of 'development' brings. Many resident foreigners and tourist will be interested to notice the march and hear the speeches. The issue of privatization of the beaches and a possible cruise ship pier certainly will affect future visiting plans so why wouldn't they be interested to listen? - obviously not a political act to listen when this will effect their plans to return as a tourist.

I agree with Fran. There are many ways for locals and foreigners to be of help and to express opinions. I"m sure these ways will be made clear as the issue evolves.

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Elisabeth, Saturday, April 02, 2011, 06:43 (3951 days ago) @ Laura

You are absolutely right on Laura. Nature and the preservation of such is not a Mexican or local native problem- it is a world-wide problem and everyone has the right to protect and preserve no matter where they are or in what country they happen to be in. In fact, I would go further to say it is our duty! This goes far beyond interfering with Mexican government politics which is illegal. It is however not an illegal act to make your thoughts and feelings known when there are plans to ruin an ecological system, and to show support for the people whose country you enjoy as a tourist or part time resident. I do not believe that you will be deported for standing up for nature and to suggest that you would be is ludicrous and fear mongering at its worst. I wish I were there sharkboy. I would be proud to stand up with you and Merxican people who have been so kind and welcoming to me. It is the least I could do!

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Scott ⌂, Mérida, Yucatán, Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 23:31 (3953 days ago) @ Bill

Can you please point me to the law that says it is an indictable criminal offence for foreigners to express simple opinions like "I do not think they should build a cruise ship peer in the bay" or to have a save the bay bumper sticker, or to listen to speeches at a local rally? Because as far as I can tell, Article 33 isn't regulated. Rather, it explicitly states that foreigners have all the same rights as Mexicans as under Chapter I Title I, but the president has a special and exclusive privilege to kick you out if he wants.

First, can someone please explain to me, I'm genuinely interested in the answer, how this equates to it being against the criminal law to express an opinion or listen to someone else's opinions in Mexico? Ok, so the president has a special power to kick you out, but seriously, is he going to do that over a bumper sticker or listening to some environmentalist speeches in Zihuatanejo?

I want to see the law where it says any foreigner who dares to express an opinion in Mexico contrary to the self-interest of any federal, state or municipal authority is liable to a prison sentence between no less than or no greater than such and such a length of time.

If it isn't a criminal offence to express an opinion, then people should stop implying it is, and instead just recognize it for what it is. An special privilege granted to the president for use in exceptional cases. And, historically, primarily used to boot out common criminals convicted of non-political crimes.

Mexico isn't like the USA. Every Mexican knows everything is open to interpretation, you're liable to get a different answer from one official to the next. Two immigration officers sitting 5 feet away from each other rarely even give the same answer to a foreigner regarding immigration policies. What it comes down to is how any particular officer or authority happens to interpret the law at any given time or place. So there is of course a risk that immigration could interpret that bumper sticker in a bad way, but President Felipe Calderon still has to sign the deportation order, and if he's got time to do that over a bumper sticker or tourists listening to speeches at an otherwise orderly demonstration, with all those other problems the country is facing, then something is seriously wrong in my opinion.

What it comes down to is a drafting or continuity error in the constitution itself, whatever the legal term for that is (errores de técnica jurídica in spanish). First it grants the rights, then says the president can take them away. The confusion comes from the constitution itself.

I also fail to understand how participating in an online campaign is different from a demonstration. You're still involving yourself in the local political affairs. Whether participating in something like an online petition or email campaign to politicians or listening to the speeches in person. President Calderon could kick you out regardless. We're not talking about some technicality, like "I'm on US soil therefore it's ok". Well guess what, they can still kick you out for pretty much any reason they want and without cause, so if you're involving yourself from home it's not going to make a whole lot of difference in the long run if you intend to ever return again.

I don't see how it is morally wrong to listen to a speech or simply walk in a march like this either. It sure ain't a problem for foreigners to protest in the USA or Canada, they have every right to do so if they are have otherwise been legally admitted to the USA, or in the case of Canada, are protected by the fundamental freedoms of the Charter the moment they step foot on Canadian soil. Mexicans protest US laws all the time. The Arizona law, for example. Is it morally wrong for Mexicans to protest or express their opinion about that? So why is it different in reverse? For Calderon to enforce his Article 33 powers over simple, non-violent things like this would be extremely hypocritical.

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Dalejb, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 05:44 (3953 days ago) @ Scott

I find the "back and forth" discussion interesting. I am trying to equate it to something closer at home and wonder about how it would be viewed here if non-USA citizens became involved in local issues.

Where I live we have many controversial issues, some of which are reintroduction of wolves, let it burn policy in our forests (especially Yellowstone Park), slaughter of bison/buffalo that "may" infect domestic livestock, open pit mining, clear cut forest harvest, coal fired electric generators, wind energy, power transmission lines, "fracking" for oil, refining of oil etc etc. The list is endless. Almost all, if not all, have valid points on either side. Generally the people involved can see only one side.

Some of the issues have large input by people that live a long way away and never even come to visit our area.

I have a definite side on some of the issues but am unsure on others.

I wonder how it would be accepted if people that are not USA citizens were to become strong advocates of any of these issues, regardless of which side they take. I suspect, but don't really know, that the general consensus would be "this is none of your business" from advocates on both sides. On the other hand, maybe everyone wants support for their particular side regardless of which side that is.

I am not trying to start, continue or promote a fight here. I am just pondering the concept. Please carry on.

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The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by frostbite ⌂ @, Hamilton MT, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 07:44 (3953 days ago) @ Dalejb

Good points, Dale. As a non-US citizen in San Francisco back in the sixties, I joined friends at civil rights sit-ins as well as marches against the Vietnam war. All this was legal for me to do until somebody in power declared a particular action to be illegal, which would then have made me deportable, so that's when I stopped sitting in or marching. In the States deportation is a faily lengthy process, in Mexico not so much. I knew a couple from California who moved to Zihua and were teaching English without the proper paperwork. I'm told they were unceremoniously put on the next flight out after somebody turned them in to Migracion. I seriously doubt that the president's signature was involved.

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Scott ⌂, Mérida, Yucatán, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 10:56 (3953 days ago) @ frostbite

The president's signature is for Article 33 expulsions of foreigners whose presence he deems inexpedient for political or any other reasons, not ordinary removals of people who have violated immigration laws. Mexico unceremoniously deports scores of Central Americans all the time.

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Vancouvertony, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 11:22 (3953 days ago) @ Scott

So Scott,I guess it would be unacceptable to wear my T-shirt that say's...

"No Al Muelle De Cruceros En La Bahia De Zihuatanejo"

Not being Mexican of course.:devil:

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Craig Scheiner, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 11:53 (3953 days ago) @ Scott

From the depth of you question, don't you think you should be asking an attorney versed in Mexican law instead of this forum? Why would you expect to get a valid legal answer here? All that is offered here is non-legal opinion and speculation. This board is the best for tourist questions but a far cry from what you are asking for.

Craig

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Scott ⌂, Mérida, Yucatán, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 13:02 (3953 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

You guys are the ones suggesting it is a criminal offence to express an opinion in Mexico, peacefully walk in a non-political march, or listen to the environmentalist speeches. Consequently scaring people away from the rally. I think the onus should be on you guys to point us to the law that says that. And Mexico isn't a common law jurisdiction. If it's against the law, there will be an explicit law somewhere saying so.

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The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by frostbite ⌂ @, Hamilton MT, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 14:44 (3953 days ago) @ Scott

As I mentioned elsewhere, if Migracion perceives participation by foreigners in the march under discussion as being political and therefore illegal, foreigners are potentially subject to deportation without any legal process whatsoever.

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Craig Scheiner, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 14:57 (3953 days ago) @ frostbite

Also Scott, Frostbite did ask the actual authorities and they told him foreigners certainly could be deported for participating in this demo. Perhaps yo missed that post. Scroll down, you'll find it. It is the only post on this subject so far with an official answer from representatives of the Mexican government.

Everything else posted about this has been speculation and personal opinion. So as of this moment, the official response is, foreigners can be deported for participating AFAIK.

Craig

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Scott ⌂, Mérida, Yucatán, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 16:06 (3953 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

It's funny how two people can read the same thing and come to very different conclusions.

"If the land on which development is to take place in Barra de Potosi has been purchased by a private developer, marching in protest to such planned development by foreigners is permitted."

Then I asked so is it a private development or not, and ZihuaRob confirmed that the land is owned by private developers and that a for profit corporation (a Sociedad Anonima de Capital Variable) called "Fonatur Port Operating Company" that the Mexican government owns shares in is involved with it. They needed a concession from the government to be allowed to do what they want to do, because they are, by definition, not the government.

I don't see where you get "Frostbite did ask the actual authorities and they told him foreigners certainly could be deported for participating in this demo" from that. It's all a matter of perceptions, I guess. Sure, if they really wanted to they could make your life miserable. But, they can do that anyway. This is a few degrees removed from "interfering in the political affairs of the country", not like going around canvasing for a particular political party or something.

So whatever the law actually is, I don't think Mexico should be allowed to treat people like that. The Mexican government is always demanding that the US respect the rights of migrants in the USA, therefore they should respect the rights of migrants in Mexico as well. The subjection of foreign citizens to arbitrary arrest and expulsion at the whim of any authority who deems an action even remotely political seems like a giant violation of the spirit of things like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The Latest Latest Official Word

by Craig Scheiner, Thursday, March 31, 2011, 16:26 (3953 days ago) @ Scott

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Hot off the presses as of 3:22 PDT.

I received an email from a friend of mine just moments ago (Breathless!).
It contained the following:

"My Compadre also called a friend of his in Mexico City who is a Mexican Law attorney and he was told "Forgieners can not march without the posibility of deportation". I asked him to contact the lawyer for me as I knew he knew someone."

Film at 11.

Craig

The March is over

by ElAleman, Friday, April 01, 2011, 00:06 (3952 days ago) @ Craig Scheiner

The protest march is over and it was impressive how many people attended. There were of course some foreigners among the participants, myself included. Nobody was molested, no one was arrested. It was an orderly and peaceful march through downtown and to the port where the demonstration was completed. Thanks to all the foreign residents and not residents for having had the moral courage to take part in the protest March. Many thanks to all participants for their dedication to fight against the privatization of the Bay of Zihuatanejo and Barra de Potosi.

Hasta la próxima,
Eugen

The Ugly (you fill-in the nationality)

by Bill @, Chicago, Illinois, Friday, April 01, 2011, 21:58 (3951 days ago) @ Scott

There's no prohibition on thought, or observing ... but foreigners taking to the streets and demonstrating by marching, holding placards, etc., has, oftentimes, been held as illegal or against the provisions that allow tourists to stay in Mexico. If Mexican's have to rely upon foreigners to march in their place then the issue isn't worth fighting for. Few foreigners will understand the issues at hand and we've had at least one person in this discussion who is selling real estate in the area, illegally, or improperly promoting its sale, and has a clear and disgusting conflict of interest. Let local residents decide the future of their community, not foreigner do-gooders who haven't a clue. But, the march is over and there appears to have been good support by local residents - and that's a good thing, no matter what side of the issue they were on. Rob has often railed against foreigners for supporting schools and children in areas he labels as squatters and other such instances and this is no different. Mind your own business. That's the law in Mexico, as far as foreign influence is concerned.

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hey señor bill

by Sharkboy ⌂ @, Barra de Potosi, Friday, April 01, 2011, 22:49 (3951 days ago) @ Bill

Hola de nuevo señor Bill. jejejeje,. primera vez que me disen extranjero. pero soy mas mexicano que el nopal. que speedy Gonzales., No soy extranjero. solo una aclaracion. hay muchas mas maneras de ayudar. claro que si. y yo no creo saber mas que los mexicanos por que sabe una cosa? soy mexicano. esta marcha fue pasifica y creo que de los extranjeros que andavan aya ninguno fue deportado. por que por salvar al medio ambiente no se puede deportar. si usted dice que se pueden deportar por cuestiones asi, entonses por que no deportan a extranjeros que pertenecen al grupo ambientalista wildcoast? o por que no deportan a Laurel en el Refujio de potosi por ver los interes de la vida salvaje del area? fijese que esas personas en vez de ser deportados son admiradas incluso por mexicanos mismos. pero esta bien. esto no es politico. es cuestion ambiental. bye... perdon.. adios

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Oye, Avi...

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Saturday, April 02, 2011, 08:15 (3951 days ago) @ Sharkboy

Hola Avi. Creo que el Sr. Bill estaba dirigiendo sus comentarios al Sr. Scott (un canadiense) y a los demás extranjeros estadounidenses. Y tiene mucha razón. Es una cosa que los extranjeros nos ayuden con suministros para escuelas o que nos apoyen para proteger la naturaleza, pero para que nuestras causas tengan relevancia y éxito es menester que nosotros nos organizemos y que hablemos por nosotros mismos, recordando que nuestros peores enemigo son la apatía y la memoria corta. Hay que recordar de los errores del pasado para no volver a repitirlos, y hay que sacar inspiración y fuerza de quienes lucharon en el antaño para las libertades y privilegios que hoy gozamos.

Más mexicano que el nopal... ¡está bien dicho! :vivamexico: