Zihuatanejo-Ixtapa Message Board - The Refugee Caravan

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Political pundits have been predicting an "October Surprise" before the US November midterm elections. This caravan of refugees heading for the US border is that "surprise": the best gift that Trump and his crowd could possibly hope for. In fact, it's such an incredibly good turn-of-events for the Republicans that anyone could be excused for being suspicious as to its timing, its organization and its funding. The refugees themselves are undoubtedly bone fide, but the timing, organization and funding should be highly suspect.

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Or it could highlight, the past failures of the fears of communism or socialism, and the war on drugs. Both a result of failed US foreign policy. If I am not incorrect there were only one or two countries south of Mexico, that the US did not support some kind of RWNJ dictatorship. When those failed, you got bands of thugs or some extreme form of socialism. People are exiting those places. Instead of acting from fear with the stick, hopefully we can learn from history, so far it doesn't look like that. But hey Im Canadian and it isn't my business, exhale.
:smoking:

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Instead of focusing on the people who are victims of circumstances, don’t you think the focus should be on what they are fleeing from? Fixing THAT problem should be your focus. Not the refugees or a demented man’s political fortunes.

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I couldn't agree more.

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Instead of focusing on the people who are victims of circumstances, don’t you think the focus should be on what they are fleeing from? Fixing THAT problem should be your focus. Not the refugees or a demented man’s political fortunes.

Don't know why this is directed at me. Sometimes you need to get off your preachy high horse, Rob. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to state the obvious. Yes, the situations they are fleeing are horrendous -chronic unemployment, generational poverty, pervasive institutionalized corruption and violence - conditions that unfortunately affect much of the world's population.
My post offers the opinion that these unfortunate people are being used....a better word would be exploited....for political purposes. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Cullen Murphy, former editor at "The Atlantic," published a 2007 book in which he explored, in part, the inability of Rome to stop the "hordes" from crashing its borders, as contributing to the fall of that empire. History is instructive.

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Cullen Murphy, former editor at "The Atlantic," published a 2007 book in which he explored, in part, the inability of Rome to stop the "hordes" from crashing its borders, as contributing to the fall of that empire. History is instructive.

Except the difference between now and then is those "hordes" were composed mostly of people whom Rome had initiated conflict with and exacted tribute from. Indifference to the plight of non-Romans and arrogance had as much to do with the fall of Rome as any external factors. Everyone at the time wanted to see Rome fall after all the carnage and horror they wrought on their neighbors near and far.

The people trying to find refuge in the USA aren't bent on seeing the USA conquered. Quite the contrary. In spite of the Republican narrative, they aren't criminals and they aren't the enemy.

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Instead of focusing on the people who are victims of circumstances, don’t you think the focus should be on what they are fleeing from? Fixing THAT problem should be your focus. Not the refugees or a demented man’s political fortunes.

Don't know why this is directed at me. Sometimes you need to get off your preachy high horse, Rob. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to state the obvious. Yes, the situations they are fleeing are horrendous -chronic unemployment, generational poverty, pervasive institutionalized corruption and violence - conditions that unfortunately affect much of the world's population.
My post offers the opinion that these unfortunate people are being used....a better word would be exploited....for political purposes. Nothing more, nothing less.

And my post suggests that, unless you're offering them assistance, folks who focus on the refugees are also being played.

Here in Mexico some of the the media has been playing into The Chump strategy of focusing on the refugees aka "the boogeyman", even portraying them as violent because the Guatemalan and Mexican police did what The Chump wanted them to do. Three guesses which media. But the more grass roots and smaller media are focused on exposing the game of the politicians and the conditions that lead to there being so many refugees. It's easy to confuse the reasons and dismiss their superficial "obvious" causes. Of course they're being exploited. As are most of the world's impoverished people. The cycle of poverty is something that can be broken with education and opportunities, but the greed of the super wealthy apparently has no limits or shame. Of course they'll deny climate science publicly and foment discord, strife and even wars privately. Like The Chump made plain: wouldn't want to let anything get in the way of a multi-billion dollar ARMS DEAL. Human rights will always take a back seat to profits the way capitalism is currently practiced, especially by the USA.

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Would I be out of line to say that normally, refugees do no raise their fist and wave their flag when approaching another`s territory but invaders do!

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Would I be out of line to say that normally, refugees do no raise their fist and wave their flag when approaching another`s territory but invaders do!

And you saw this on which channel?

Stop letting sound bites and 5-minute news stories be your sources of disinformation.

These are people who don't seek to be under the bright lights of "news" cameras seeking sensational shots. If they raise fists they are angry at being used and played for fools by unscrupulous politicians. I'd wager I saw more of yesterday's events than you, and what I saw were desperate and determined people including women with children and even plenty of elderly folks fleeing problems they didn't cause and can't fix. It is actually quite a bit of poetic justice that they would seek to flee to the USA, a source of much of what is wrong in their respective countries. The USA needs to fix what it broke

If you think they are invaders then you are certainly entitled to be a political pawn for The Chump and his perverted version of the GOP. But then that would surprise me if you did, Phil. You've always seemed much more rational and level-headed than that.

Me parece una broma lo dicho por Trump sobre migrantes: Rigoberta Menchú

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Gee, all is asked is would I be out of line under normal circumstances.

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Gee, all is asked is would I be out of line under normal circumstances.

Hahahahaha! :smoking:

You know my reply isn't just for you, right?

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Why doesn’t Mexico reach out and embrace these political refugees? Maybe they could reside in the hills surrounding Zihua?

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Why doesn’t Mexico reach out and embrace these political refugees? Maybe they could reside in the hills surrounding Zihua?

Mexico has and does. Check any of the national newspapers on my NEWS page. Your attempted provocation misses wide off the mark because you apparently didn't bother to check what Mexico's president-elect, governors and people are saying. The president-elect is already offering them jobs. Chiapas' governor welcomed them and offered them shelter and assistance. People all across the nation offer donations to help them.

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Problem solved!!

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Definition of a chump: a person who is easily tricked: a stupid or foolish person.
Rob, your reference to President Trump as "Chump" says more about you than him. Like it or not he is the President of the United States. Our economy is the best in a long time with more people working than ever. A sense of some kind of decorum should occur to you every once in a while. Try it, it's not that difficult.

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An anguished question from a Trump supporter: "Why do liberals think Trump supporters are stupid?"

The serious answer: Here’s what we really think about Trump supporters - the rich, the poor, the malignant and the innocently well-meaning, the ones who think and the ones who don't...

That when you saw a man who had owned a fraudulent university, intent on scamming poor people, you thought "Fine."

That when you saw a man who had made it his business practice to stiff his creditors, you said, "Okay."

That when you heard him proudly brag about his own history of sexual abuse, you said, "No problem."

That when he made up stories about seeing Muslim-Americans in the thousands cheering the destruction of the World Trade Center, you said, "Not an issue."

That when you saw him brag that he could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue and you wouldn't care, you chirped, "He sure knows me."

That when you heard him illustrate his own character by telling that cute story about the elderly guest bleeding on the floor at his country club, the story about how he turned his back and how it was all an imposition on him, you said, "That's cool!"

That when you saw him mock the disabled, you thought it was the funniest thing you ever saw.

That when you heard him brag that he doesn't read books, you said, "Well, who has time?"

That when the Central Park Five were compensated as innocent men convicted of a crime they didn't commit, and he angrily said that they should still be in prison, you said, "That makes sense."

That when you heard him tell his supporters to beat up protesters and that he would hire attorneys, you thought, "Yes!"

That when you heard him tell one rally to confiscate a man's coat before throwing him out into the freezing cold, you said, "What a great guy!"

That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!"

That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be."

That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!"

That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!"

That you have heard him say that it was difficult to help Puerto Rico because it was the middle of water and you have said, "That makes sense."

That you have seen him start fights with every country from Canada to New Zealand while praising Russia and quote, "falling in love" with the dictator of North Korea, and you have said, "That's statesmanship!"

That Trump separated children from their families and put them in cages, managed to lose track of 1500 kids. has opened a tent city incarceration camp in the desert in Texas - he explains that they’re just “animals” - and you say, “Well, okay then.”

That you have witnessed all the thousand and one other manifestations of corruption and low moral character and outright animalistic rudeness and contempt for you, the working American voter, and you still show up grinning and wearing your MAGA hats and threatening to beat up anybody who says otherwise.

What you don't get, Trump supporters in 2018, is that succumbing to frustration and thinking of you as stupid may be wrong and unhelpful, but it's also...hear me...charitable.

Because if you're NOT stupid, we must turn to other explanations, and most of them are *less* flattering.

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It's a lost cause, Rob. Anyone who sees any "decorum" in the Trump presidency is blind, deaf and....beyond reasoning.

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:megusta:

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Very well said amigo!

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

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:megusta:

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Rob, I am a relative newcomer and for the most part observe quietly, avoiding the fray BUT I need to vehemently agree with your analysis of why do liberals think Trump supporters are stupid. You have shown a sampling of Trump;s outrageous behaviour and his faithfuls blind acceptance of it. This man is destroying the image of your country with his childish name calling and boorish behaviour faster than it can ever be rehabilitated but his base calls for his critics to show respect and decorum. I agree with your sentiments 100%

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An anguished question from a Trump supporter: "Why do liberals think Trump supporters are stupid?"

The serious answer: Here’s what we really think about Trump supporters - the rich, the poor, the malignant and the innocently well-meaning, the ones who think and the ones who don't...

That when you saw a man who had owned a fraudulent university, intent on scamming poor people, you thought "Fine."

That when you saw a man who had made it his business practice to stiff his creditors, you said, "Okay."

That when you heard him proudly brag about his own history of sexual abuse, you said, "No problem."

That when he made up stories about seeing Muslim-Americans in the thousands cheering the destruction of the World Trade Center, you said, "Not an issue."

That when you saw him brag that he could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue and you wouldn't care, you chirped, "He sure knows me."

That when you heard him illustrate his own character by telling that cute story about the elderly guest bleeding on the floor at his country club, the story about how he turned his back and how it was all an imposition on him, you said, "That's cool!"

That when you saw him mock the disabled, you thought it was the funniest thing you ever saw.

That when you heard him brag that he doesn't read books, you said, "Well, who has time?"

That when the Central Park Five were compensated as innocent men convicted of a crime they didn't commit, and he angrily said that they should still be in prison, you said, "That makes sense."

That when you heard him tell his supporters to beat up protesters and that he would hire attorneys, you thought, "Yes!"

That when you heard him tell one rally to confiscate a man's coat before throwing him out into the freezing cold, you said, "What a great guy!"

That you have watched the parade of neo-Nazis and white supremacists with whom he curries favor, while refusing to condemn outright Nazis, and you have said, "Thumbs up!"

That you hear him unable to talk to foreign dignitaries without insulting their countries and demanding that they praise his electoral win, you said, "That's the way I want my President to be."

That you have watched him remove expertise from all layers of government in favor of people who make money off of eliminating protections in the industries they're supposed to be regulating and you have said, "What a genius!"

That you have heard him continue to profit from his businesses, in part by leveraging his position as President, to the point of overcharging the Secret Service for space in the properties he owns, and you have said, "That's smart!"

That you have heard him say that it was difficult to help Puerto Rico because it was the middle of water and you have said, "That makes sense."

That you have seen him start fights with every country from Canada to New Zealand while praising Russia and quote, "falling in love" with the dictator of North Korea, and you have said, "That's statesmanship!"

That Trump separated children from their families and put them in cages, managed to lose track of 1500 kids. has opened a tent city incarceration camp in the desert in Texas - he explains that they’re just “animals” - and you say, “Well, okay then.”

That you have witnessed all the thousand and one other manifestations of corruption and low moral character and outright animalistic rudeness and contempt for you, the working American voter, and you still show up grinning and wearing your MAGA hats and threatening to beat up anybody who says otherwise.

What you don't get, Trump supporters in 2018, is that succumbing to frustration and thinking of you as stupid may be wrong and unhelpful, but it's also...hear me...charitable.

Because if you're NOT stupid, we must turn to other explanations, and most of them are *less* flattering.

:megusta:

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Let's give credit where credit is due

https://imgur.com/gallery/L8Ua9S7

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Imagine that!

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Imagine that!

Imagine what?

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Let's give credit where credit is due

https://imgur.com/gallery/L8Ua9S7

Apparently you are unaware that people have been sharing this on Facebook lately. I seriously doubt "ammogirlt400" is the original author.

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I was about to suggest that. It has been around. And around. And maybe around again. With new items added. No offense, Rob.

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I was about to suggest that. It has been around. And around. And maybe around again. With new items added. No offense, Rob.

None taken. But apparently it struck a nerve. Snowflakes run for cover! :snicker:

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¡Bravo, muy bien dicho, amigo!
:megusta:

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Definition of a chump: a person who is easily tricked: a stupid or foolish person.
Rob, your reference to President Trump as "Chump" says more about you than him. Like it or not he is the President of the United States. Our economy is the best in a long time with more people working than ever. A sense of some kind of decorum should occur to you every once in a while. Try it, it's not that difficult.

Since when has despicable Donny ever displayed any decorum ?

Il Duce / Il Douchebag

[image]

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Froggy, are you a troll?

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Instead of focusing on the people who are victims of circumstances, don’t you think the focus should be on what they are fleeing from? Fixing THAT problem should be your focus. Not the refugees or a demented man’s political fortunes.

Don't know why this is directed at me. Sometimes you need to get off your preachy high horse, Rob. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to state the obvious. Yes, the situations they are fleeing are horrendous -chronic unemployment, generational poverty, pervasive institutionalized corruption and violence - conditions that unfortunately affect much of the world's population.
My post offers the opinion that these unfortunate people are being used....a better word would be exploited....for political purposes. Nothing more, nothing less.

And my post suggests that, unless you're offering them assistance, folks who focus on the refugees are also being played.

Here in Mexico some of the the media has been playing into The Chump strategy of focusing on the refugees aka "the boogeyman", even portraying them as violent because the Guatemalan and Mexican police did what The Chump wanted them to do. Three guesses which media. But the more grass roots and smaller media are focused on exposing the game of the politicians and the conditions that lead to there being so many refugees. It's easy to confuse the reasons and dismiss their superficial "obvious" causes. Of course they're being exploited. As are most of the world's impoverished people. The cycle of poverty is something that can be broken with education and opportunities, but the greed of the super wealthy apparently has no limits or shame. Of course they'll deny climate science publicly and foment discord, strife and even wars privately. Like The Chump made plain: wouldn't want to let anything get in the way of a multi-billion dollar ARMS DEAL. Human rights will always take a back seat to profits the way capitalism is currently practiced, especially by the USA.

I'm not being played at all. You're preaching to the choir.

How about if I put it this way - call it "HolyMole's Big Conspiracy Theory":

What better way to stoke the fears of tens of millions of xenophobic Americans than the sight of thousands of brown-skinned migrants streaming towards the US border, demanding entry? And who best to stop this deluge of barbarians at the gate? Why,Trump and the Republican Party, of course. Are the Bannons, Pages, Millers, Stones and Manaforts of the world above exploiting this crisis ..... even of precipitating, encouraging and organizing it....just weeks ahead of the mid-term elections? Exactly the kind of shady heartless backroom manipulation that guys like Manafort cut their teeth on.

Do I really need to add that I empathize with the plight of these unfortunate migrants?

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Instead of focusing on the people who are victims of circumstances, don’t you think the focus should be on what they are fleeing from? Fixing THAT problem should be your focus. Not the refugees or a demented man’s political fortunes.

Don't know why this is directed at me. Sometimes you need to get off your preachy high horse, Rob. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to state the obvious. Yes, the situations they are fleeing are horrendous -chronic unemployment, generational poverty, pervasive institutionalized corruption and violence - conditions that unfortunately affect much of the world's population.
My post offers the opinion that these unfortunate people are being used....a better word would be exploited....for political purposes. Nothing more, nothing less.

And my post suggests that, unless you're offering them assistance, folks who focus on the refugees are also being played.

Here in Mexico some of the the media has been playing into The Chump strategy of focusing on the refugees aka "the boogeyman", even portraying them as violent because the Guatemalan and Mexican police did what The Chump wanted them to do. Three guesses which media. But the more grass roots and smaller media are focused on exposing the game of the politicians and the conditions that lead to there being so many refugees. It's easy to confuse the reasons and dismiss their superficial "obvious" causes. Of course they're being exploited. As are most of the world's impoverished people. The cycle of poverty is something that can be broken with education and opportunities, but the greed of the super wealthy apparently has no limits or shame. Of course they'll deny climate science publicly and foment discord, strife and even wars privately. Like The Chump made plain: wouldn't want to let anything get in the way of a multi-billion dollar ARMS DEAL. Human rights will always take a back seat to profits the way capitalism is currently practiced, especially by the USA.

I'm not being played at all. You're preaching to the choir.

How about if I put it this way - call it "HolyMole's Big Conspiracy Theory":

What better way to stoke the fears of tens of millions of xenophobic Americans than the sight of thousands of brown-skinned migrants streaming towards the US border, demanding entry? And who best to stop this deluge of barbarians at the gate? Why,Trump and the Republican Party, of course. Are the Bannons, Pages, Millers, Stones and Manaforts of the world above exploiting this crisis ..... even of precipitating, encouraging and organizing it....just weeks ahead of the mid-term elections? Exactly the kind of shady heartless backroom manipulation that guys like Manafort cut their teeth on.

Do I really need to add that I empathize with the plight of these unfortunate migrants?

You mean, you mean... GEORGE SOROS ISN'T PAYING THEM? IT ISN'T A DEMOCRAT CONSPIRACY PLOT TO PAD THEIR VOTING ROSTERS? SOROS ISN'T BEHIND ALL THIS? Chumplets are quite convinced he is. Can't burst their bubble. That would be mean and make them look like babies, and The Chump stressed emphatically on 60 Minutes that he's not a baby. :snicker:

CRAZY LIVES HERE

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Why can't anyone offer meaningful conversation on how to solve this problem--improving the lot of the poor so they don't have a need to migrate?

Pointing fingers and deriding other people will not solve anything but will make it worse.

To be sure many of or Southern neighbors have reason to seek a better life for themselves and their families but openings wide open borders and pointing fingers at incompetent politicians just widens the gap.

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Why can't anyone offer meaningful conversation on how to solve this problem--improving the lot of the poor so they don't have a need to migrate?

Pointing fingers and deriding other people will not solve anything but will make it worse.

To be sure many of or Southern neighbors have reason to seek a better life for themselves and their families but openings wide open borders and pointing fingers at incompetent politicians just widens the gap.

If you can't even identify the problem and its causes it is extremely unikely you will be able to fix it.

Legalizing all stupidly banned popular substances would be a start by removing a major source of funding from the multi-billion dollar black market currently dominated by violent organized criminals and apparently at least a few of the alphabet soup clandestine federal agencies in the US government.

Ending the meddling by the US government in internal affairs of other nations that has led to social strife and suffering EACH AND EVERY TIME. The time of US hegemony ended decades ago. The USA would never stand for being treated the way it treats other nations.

It seems each time these nations elect the government they want that negatively affects certain US economic interests, the USA works to overthrow the government or otherwise destabilize it, often committing atrocities and crimes against humanity in the process with no negative repercussions at all beyond the flight of refugees to the US border, to which certain slimebag politicians respond by making a wedge issue out of the refugees and migrant workers with no care or compassion whatsoever for their well being.

Instead of doing business with China how about investing in the nations who are our neighbors instead of simply exploiting their circumstances and their resources? While I have nothing against China's politico-economic form of government, I believe it is inherently unfair competition to do business with nations that use what is essentially slave labor and whose value of their currency is not based on international market value. They fall into a special category and doing business with them requires different rules that currently are not being applied.

Guatemala and Honduras both currently have conservative governments seeking, like the USA, to take advantage of the situation for political gain, blaming "leftist" elements for fomenting instability, instead of dealing with the actual facts on the ground, same as the US government. So it's damn near impossible to implement any meaningful solutions until the actors involved act like mature and responsible adults. Mexico played along with the USA to appease them and NOT allow the USA to make this about Mexico, a shrewd move by an outgoing government with really nothing to lose, while the incoming government has refrained from criticizing the current government and has instead offered renewed assistance and vowed to protect a people's right to migrate to seek a better life, setting the example and making the case for better treatment of Mexicans and other migrants by the USA.

Perhaps if the USA had not meddled in Honduras or Guatemala or El Salvador these migrations and the continuous flow of mostly refugees from those nations would not be occurring. And if all our nations ceased playing the Prohibition game with popular substances used by more than 40 million US citizens, another policy originating in US racism, there wouldn't be anything remotely resembling the levels of violence causing folks to flee their communities in the first place.

One glaring question remains, how long does a US policy have to be an abject failure causing an untold amount of death and suffering before they fix it? 50 years? 75 years? How long? Therein apparently lies the so far unresolvable conundrum.

[image]

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:megusta:

Many will read this and say that your response is inherently anti-USA. I don't think that is the case at all, this is a recognition of the very significant part that the USA plays in the world and in Latin America in part. We have to recognize the mistakes we have made as a country and contribute accordingly to its solution. The United States has a unique ability to affect positive change to resolve the root cause of this problem and in the end it will benefit us all even though some will say we are giving our money away to foreign countries. Those countries and citizens also bear responsibility but we can contribute to their internal solutions through policies and actions in a way that few other nations have.

Move away from prohibition towards regulation and treatment.
Move away from foreign diplomacy that is dictated purely by economic gains towards diplomacy that promotes liberal democracy in all its many forms.

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

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:megusta:

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DITTO!

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It would be interesting to see similar maps for the Middle East and Asia. We have the perception that we are the ones with the white hats. Our hats are a very deep gray.

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How long does it take to fix US policies inflicting pain and suffering on others? Well, let`s consider slavery in the US. Since the arrival of the first slaves in the US sometime in the early 1600`s, until the 1863 Emancipation Declaration and the defeat of the Confederacy two years later, that would look like about 250 years. But legal abolition of slavery did not abolish or much alter American CULTURAL ATTITUDES towards slavery, at least in some sectors, as seen by resistance to the removal of Confederate monuments. If US policy at home seems "unresolvable," as you state, we`ll wait a hell of a lot longer than 250 years for American Empire policy abroad to change much.

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I guess, the first step to be part a the solution, is to acknowledging the cause of the problem.

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