Fentanyl is not "manufactured" in Mexico, it's only pressed into pills and distributed...that's very different than "manufactured"

What's the definition of 'made', or 'manufactured'? Is it where the chemicals are put together? Or where it's pressed into pills? Potato. Potahtoe (Thx Dan Quayle!) Semantics, and a pretty silly argument.

And then completely lost it the next day.

We don't produce fentanyl in Mexico.
There are no records of Mexican fentanyl.
No fentanyl is manufactured in Mexico. (Because we are banning it for medical use)

They are doubling down on the lie daily now.

Cartels don't manufacture fentanyl. That was just a TV show...and it wasn't even fentanyl. But just like in the TV show, there are now like three gringos running the whole thing out of a carwash.

He lost no spine. Apparently you are unaware that almost all of the fentanyl that enters Mexico comes from China, and they are quite happy to supply it. It isn't made in Mexico. The problem isn't Mexico. The problem is the USA banning substances that tens of millions of your fellow citizens are going to obtain and use one way or another. Why they choose fentanyl is the USA's problem. Ask your doctors who prescribed opioids.

AMLO told an obvious lie and now people in his administration are stuck trying to defend it. Semantics and weasel words. Fentanyl is not "manufactured" in Mexico, it's only pressed into pills and distributed...that's very different than "manufactured".

Better remove all those "Hehco in México" stickers from the cars that roll off maquiladora assembly lines; the parts are made somewhere else.

I don’t pretend to have an answer ...

I agree with you. What is the answer?

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something." -- F.D.R. in the depths of the Great Depression

What we are doing now is not working and only making the situation worse. We have got to try something new. For what it is worth, my offering would be to use some form of the Portugal model. Is it perfect? Hell, no. But it is better than locking up almost 1% of your population -- far more than any other large civilization in history -- and enriching thugs who are growing more powerful and influential each day, all the while watching members of your society throw their lives away.

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

Fentanyl is made in CHINA. Most fentanyl that enters the USA comes directly from China.

Proof to back up your words? Or just your "feelings" Can you post a link?

Here's a link, and its headline would make you think you were right and I was wrong, but then read what it actually says, and OOPS, I've been right all along. Fentanyl is sent to Mexico by the Chinese. Cartels simply change its form to smuggle it into the USA.

https://www.infobae.com/mexico/2023/03/14/los-datos-que-desmienten-a-amlo-y-ebrard-sobre-la-produccion-y-consumo-de-fentanilo-en-mexico/

This whole fentanyl problem is just an extension of the USA's opioid problem. For some reason, U.S. narcos are allowed to operate in plain sight, have their lobbyists wine & dine politicians in Washington D.C., and they even get to keep their money after being caught without serving any prison time. Just ask the Sackler family. Mind boggling!

Last I heard, admittedly a few years ago, the feds said they intercept about half of all shipments across the border. That seems a bit high to me, but I'll concede the point. But somehow demand is still being met. Again if demand outstripped supply then prices would spike. Economics 101. But prices don't spike, which means that the cartels simply ship twice as much product, assuming half will be intercepted. Demand would still be fully met, and for the cartels it's a relatively small cost of doing business.

In fact we could save a lot of money and grief if we ended interdiction altogether. Why? Demand for hard drugs is pretty inelastic. Those people that want their fentanyl now can find it quite easily, and more supply won't likely create much of a new market. (Otherwise supply-side economics would actually work. History has shown clearly that it doesn't.) And while drugs would likely be a bit cheaper, addicts in withdrawal aren't usually much concerned about modest price changes. The status quo of supply and demand would hold, and border agents could focus on more important matters, like scaring the shit out of desperate refugees and separating kids from their parents. So let them all flow uninterrupted, and let the free market work its magic.

But it won't happen. The drug war industry is too well funded and too well entrenched and We the People aren't nearly smart enough. And there is some value in making a moral statement, even if it is a fool's game that causes far more problems than it solves. All of this doesn't solve or even address the issues discussed in this thread - on that I got nothing to add - only points out the idiocy of the drug war, and the fantasyland most of us live in if we think it can be won.

The illegal drug trade is about the purest form of unregulated capitalism there is.

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

Fentanyl is made in CHINA. Most fentanyl that enters the USA comes directly from China.

Proof to back up your words? Or just your "feelings" Can you post a link?

The article you posted and quoted from earlier stated that the materials to process the fentanyl came from China. Rob may be mistaken that the fentanyl comes directly from China but the source of the materials is China. So yes, the drug is processed and distributed from Mexico but the original source is China. But hey, you "owned the liberal" Rob and that is all that matters, right? We aren't here to discuss the problem and how to fix it. We are here to put down each other and feel smug and righteous.

Why don't we argue over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin? That will help the situation!

In the meantime, let's assume that you are King of World and could wave a magic wand and all the drug cartels and processing and distribution channels are eradicated from Mexico. The drugs will just come from some other place. The price will rise as the cost of production and distribution will increase but the demand will still be there.

I know! You can again wave your magic Nancy Reagan "Just Say No" wand and everyone in the Whole Wide World will stop using illegal drugs and just drink beer. That's how we will solve the problem! Oh, darned, Just Say No just didn't work, did it?

We are at an impasse. You fail to acknowledge that the War on Drugs has been a dismal and costly and ruinous failure. You believe that if only we tried harder, we could rid the world of illegal drugs. If only we sentenced drugs dealers and users to death, then that would solve the problem. Not only are you delusional, you are stone cold wrong. Totalitarian governments that mete out the death penalty for dealers and users have also failed to stop the usage. Humans have been dealing with addiction for thousands of years.

However, since you feel it is fine to speak for others, I would submit that you would be just fine if we brought back wholesale public executions. You would be sitting in the front row, guzzling your beer, as your friend who became addicted was hung by the neck for moral failure.

I’m right you’re wrong, no I’m right you’re wrong. It’s pretty clear that the U.S. government cares little for the little people, with their actions at prevention and education. Drugs certainly are used in a greater proportion the lower you go on the economic scale. We see the same thing with with the economy, big banks and Wall Street firms are bailed out with little consternation by the big whigs. Yet the individuals who got bailed out after Covid are blamed for inflating prices, so we raise interest rates to kick them out of their jobs and increase unemployment. Mexico does little to the cartels, because the politicians have been paid by them in the past. The manufacturing of drugs or possession of salable quantities is a crime in Mexico. The wealthy class in Mexico is entrenched, they don’t want new members, so those with ambition turn to crime. Stealing money from the tortillerias or the lime or avocado farmers, basically goes unchecked as well as the drug trade. The governments point fingers because they don’t want the blame, and you guys arguing here, fall for it. Buying and selling are the same transaction. For change to occur you also need joint efforts by the governments, but hey that costs money.

Most politicians here don't stand up to the cartels because they and their families will get killed if they do. Like I said, Mexico has a lot of poor people and folks can certainly use the money no matter the source, but even Mexico's president isn't doing what needs doing even though the Mexico's Supreme Court ruled that people have a right to ingest whatever they want as long as they don't negatively affect others or otherwise cause themselves to be a public burden, recognizing that it isn't the consumer's fault that the substances they want to use must currently be provided by a black market controlled by violent criminals. Their point was that the substances should be available legally to the consumer so that the black market isn't necessary, something the government still hasn't followed through on to comply with the court.

So while past government's played silly games known as the war on drugs, compromising the police and putting their lives more at risk than their pay was worth, the current federal government decided not to play and instead focused on trying to keep young people from becoming fodder for organized criminals. It will take decades for the police to get up to speed, but all things remaining equal, they will always remain outgunned and outspent by the cartels, and soon even by the smaller gangs that have sprouted to replace all the previously arrested criminals who almost seemed like gentlemen compared to today's gangbangers. Thus the urgency of legalizing popular substances.

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

Fentanyl is made in CHINA. Most fentanyl that enters the USA comes directly from China.

Proof to back up your words? Or just your "feelings" Can you post a link?

I was not very clear in my previous post about Canada so I will attempt to clarify here. My point wasn't that Canada has zero problems. My point was that Canada is not a major hub for distribution of drugs to the USA and isn't overrun with cartels who challenge the power of the government to the same degree that they do here in Mexico. That is despite the fact that it is just as dependent on the USA for trade. There is something different between Canada and Mexico, with regards to this topic of cartels and drug distribution, that makes Canada generally a safer place than Mexico when it comes to violence and guns. That is despite the fact that they both depend and are influenced by the USA in very significant ways. I think it is quite reasonable to see that the difference is in large part a result of poor governance.

The national guard was an attempt to create a professional police force? Your kidding right? A police force is a force that is professionally trained to enforce laws, investigate crimes using forensic evidence and pursuing criminals that are identified in that process. The national guard, from the beginning, was largely staffed from the military and were paid for by the military. They changed their uniforms and vehicles for a new color and then proceeded to use the same tactics as the military that have been patrolling the streets for years. So the national guard largely drive around the streets during the safe hours of the day and then disappear during the night. Just like all the other "law enforcement" agencies that are doing the same thing. If you are going to claim that they are doing actual police work then you are going to need to cite specific data because all the data I have read shows that virtually no budget has been created for the national guard to be trained in police work or in forensic labs. To top it all off AMLO's administration dispensed with the illusion that the national guard were a separate entity and integrated them into the military as another branch. How is that an attempt at building a professional police force.

It is the first time that I have read you almost criticize the large projects championed by AMLO. In all of our other interactions you have energetically defended them.

To answer you question, yes I have shared my ideas with local officials. I have advocated directly with Jorge Sanchez during the last political cycle that Zihuantanejo needs a local and professional police force. I also asked him to advocate for a major upgrade to the hospital and expressed my displeasure with the development at playa Manzanillo. I have sent emails to federal representatives expressing my wish for them to stop focusing on degrading INE and instead focus on strengthening the judiciary. Have I heard back from any of those federal officials? No. I have no illusion that I myself can change any of these. I hope that sharing these ideas, which are not my own, with as many people as possible will help them reach the mainstream.

I will reiterate, none of this meant to say that it will fix the problem of prohibition enforced and driven by the USA. The USA would be doing itself and the rest of the world a great favor if it would look for a exit strategy from the failed war on drugs and instead looked for a way to help its citizens reduce their dependence on destructive drugs.

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

Thank you for the link to this article. However, did you read the entire article? Before your quote, the article stated, "The Mexican government has acknowledged in the past that fentanyl is produced at labs in Mexico using precursor chemicals imported from China."

If one is going to quote from a source reputable source, it is always important to quote all pertinent information.

The "pertinent" information is where it is made! AND>>WHO is allowing that!

Fentanyl is made in CHINA. Most fentanyl that enters the USA comes directly from China. Who is allowing fentanyl to be a problem in the USA? The answer is U.S. lawmakers who are doing the bidding of lobbyists and polarized poorly informed U.S. voters. Not Mexico. Not AMLO. As long as it and other stupidly banned popular recreational substances used by tens of millions of U.S. citizens remain illegal in the USA, there will be a multi-billion-dollar a year black market controlled by violent organized criminals to supply those citizens. You should leave Mexico out of it and deal with the real problem, not the one you keep imagining. Mexico is not the problem. Mexico's cartels are not the problem. China isn't the problem. Even fentanyl isn't the problem. The problem is the failed laws and policies of U.S. prohibition of popular recreational substances. The problem is the lack of U.S. political will to fix the problem.

In the 2020s it doesn’t matter whether the opioids are coming from Mexico or China or elsewhere. The demand in the USA and Canada will attract the supply.

If the supply from Mexico to the USA were cut, the supply lines would shift. If the supply lines from China to Canada were cut, the supply lines would shift.

The is what is pertinent.

I agree that it is in the interests of Mexico and Mexicans that the criminal carnage be offset.

I do not agree that it is relevant to the USA or Americans whether the criminals suppling the USA are Mexican, Chinese, Afghani, or from any other nation.

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

Thank you for the link to this article. However, did you read the entire article? Before your quote, the article stated, "The Mexican government has acknowledged in the past that fentanyl is produced at labs in Mexico using precursor chemicals imported from China."

If one is going to quote from a source reputable source, it is always important to quote all pertinent information.

The "pertinent" information is where it is made! AND>>WHO is allowing that!

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

Thank you for the link to this article. However, did you read the entire article? Before your quote, the article stated, "The Mexican government has acknowledged in the past that fentanyl is produced at labs in Mexico using precursor chemicals imported from China."

If one is going to quote from a source reputable source, it is always important to quote all pertinent information.

INCORRECT!
The majority of fentanyl is mass-produced in Mexico using chemicals from China before being pressed into pills or mixed with other counterfeit pills made to look like Xanax, Adderall, or oxycodone.

https://trone.house.gov/2023/01/08/chinas-role-in-illicit-fentanyl-running-rampant-on-us-streets/

Another education story on where Fentanyl is produced [MADE]

There is little debate among U.S. and even Mexican officials that almost all the fentanyl consumed in the United States is produced and processed in Mexico.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/09/mexico-fentanyl-epidemic-overdoses/ec05cf7c-beaa-11ed-9350-7c5fccd598ad_story.html

There is another country that shares an even longer border with the USA that doesn't have the same problem as Mexico. It is Canada. Mexico needs to stop blaming others for all of its problems and realize that it has its own issues to fix as well.

I don’t know how serious the fentanyl problem is in Mexico. I have a sense of it in British Columbia, Canada.

In BC, there are approximately 182 motor vehicle deaths per year.

https://www.injuryresearch.bc.ca/injury-priorities/transport-related-injuries/motor-vehicle-occupants/#:~:text=Each%20year%2C%20around%20182%20moto...

“In 2022, there were 2,272 suspected illicit drug toxicity deaths. This is the second largest number of suspected deaths ever recorded in a calendar year, behind 2021 (2,306).”

“Preliminary data suggests that the proportion of illicit drug toxicity deaths for which illicit fentanyl was detected (alone or in combination with other drugs) was approximately 82% in 2022 and 86% in 2021. 2022 data will change as further toxicology results are received.”

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/birth-adoption-death-marriage-and-divorce/deaths/coroners-service/statistical/illicit-drug.pdf

This is in a province of about 5 million people, a bit more than the state of Michoacán.

So let's imagine Mexico somehow totally stops allowing fentanyl into and out of the country. Please don't tell me you think that solves some problem in the USA. The substance abuse and overdose problems will continue uninterrupted, just as they've done for decades no matter how much of any substance was interdicted or who gets arrested. Capitalism will always find a way to supply where there is a demand.

If the fentanyl problem were caused by Mexican cartels, Canada wouldn’t have a fentanyl problem. Mexican cartels aren’t all that interested in shipping all the way north when the USA is right next door.

Canada’s fentanyl doesn’t come from Mexico, it comes from China. The USA’s fentanyl could just as easily come from China.

I don’t disagree, but I think it is wishful thinking that somehow our drug policies will change.it is indeed very similar to what happened here in the ‘30’s. I hope that somehow México will be able to get better control of the cartels. Its citizens deserve better public safety.

"Poor Mexico. So far from God and so close to the United States." -- Attributed to Porfirio Diaz

It may be wishful thinking that the U.S. drug policies change, especially if the citizenry does not demand the change. However, it is also wishful thinking that Mexico will be able to get better control of the cartels. There is simply too much money and influence and power involved. You are correct, though, Mexico's citizens deserve much better.

"We couldn't have done worse if we tried." -- Orange County, California, drug prosecutor turned judge describing the failed War on Drugs

I suspect they probably will reinvent themselves, and to some extent seem to be doing it with the “protection” businesses they are running. While I will freely admit that the USA’s drug policy has lead to the cartel situation in Mexico, I think it is extremely unlikely that the drug policy in the USA will change anytime soon. To me, the real question is what Mexico will do to improve law enforcement to mitigate the influence of the cartels.

Mexico's already stretched its law enforcement abilities about as far as it can. Nothing is going to improve as long as hundreds of billions of narcodollars keep flowing south along with the weapons to protect the interests of violent organized criminals, and the longer this stupidity continues of doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, the harder it's going to be to deal with the organized criminals in the future, as compared to the several decades it took the U.S. federal government to get a handle on the mafias that grew out of prohibition 1.0 even after alcohol was made legal again.

I am not sure how you took from my post that I thought that Mexico stopping the flow of fentanyl would solve the problem in the USA. The entire first portion of my post was about how the majority of the problem was in the USA and it needed to fix it's own issues in order to solve the problem.

There is another country that shares an even longer border with the USA that doesn't have the same problem as Mexico. It is Canada. Mexico needs to stop blaming others for all of its problems and realize that it has its own issues to fix as well. AMLO is a very good politician and feeds into people's belief that there is always someone else who needs to solve their problems and it has made him quite popular. He has done very little to actually solve the root of the problem as far as I can tell.

I continue to be perplexed by your inability to accept any criticism of this president when I see you making valid criticisms of the local government that could easily be applied to the federal government. AMLO spends so much time and energy in pouring concrete for refineries, trains that run right through the middle of virgin jungles, thousands of bank locations under the Bienestar name, etc. Meanwhile no efforts are made to create programs that force local governments to install security cameras, no effort to create a professional national police force, no strengthening of the judiciary. I voted for President Biden in the USA and I can tell you all kinds of things and policies that I disagree with him on. Just because I vote for a guy doesn't mean that I have to agree with all the things his administration does.

You keep casting blame where it doesn't belong, IMHO, and that's what my point is. Nothing to do with AMLO. A faulty perception. Maybe Mexico will have a fentanyl or other problem. Not the point. Mexico is already doing more than it should to fight the USA's long lost war on drugs. Mexico's a country with lots of poor people. Of course organized criminals are going to profit and spread some wealth just like politicians do to buy loyalty.

Canada doesn't do WHAT? You're forgetting the lessons of Prohibition again. They don't have what problem? No criminals? Nothing crosses the border illegally? I think we all know better than that.

No effort at a professional national police force? That's precisely what the Guardia Nacional are. They're a lot better than what we used to have.

Many cities have security cameras and strong municipal police yet they still have overwhelming criminal problems because of the economic power of the people profiting from the multi-billion-dollar a year black market. That's where the solution has to be. Removing that source of income from violent organized criminals who get paid and armed by folks north of the border.

Mexico's problem still stems from colonialism. Not populism or corrupt politicians. Those are just symptoms that came from European culture. But since Mexico's indigenous population wasn't as devastated as the USA's, it's a very different situation here as they find their footing and regain some of what they lost. They seem to be AMLO's biggest supporters because he spent years traveling to their communities to see how they lived and to get to know them. Consensus is we still need refineries and trains. Not my call nor yours. You know I don't like what passes for progress, so please don't say I support what I don't.

You have some wonderful ideas. Shared them with any politicians? They seem to take too keen an interest in too much of what I say and then punish my family for it because I'm not in favor of pouring concrete all up and down our waterfront, manipulating poor people or enriching myself on the public dole. So by all means go for it. I gladly concede the spotlight to you, mi muy estimado amigo.

Un saludo.