A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by ZihuaRob
, Zihuatanejo, México, Monday, December 30, 2019, 13:17 (2298 days ago)
While it's certainly nice to see crowds of families here on vacation, it would be much nicer yet if there were more middle- and upper-class Mexican families among them. But of course I always get called an elitist foreigner on social media for complaining about the almost total absence of purchasing power among the busloads of tourists that keep arriving in greater numbers. There are no successful tourist resorts that survive on tourists without money. Not even Disney World.
Another picture postcard perfect day in paradise. Oo la wee!
![[image]](http://www.zihuatanejo.net/images/temp/2019-12-30-sunrise-playaprincipal-turistas.jpg)
The day before yesterday they hauled out the last of the two huge gruas that had been used to set the pilings at the pier. This morning they were pumping out the Flexifloats in preparation to haul them off, too.
![[image]](http://www.zihuatanejo.net/images/temp/2019-12-30-construcciondelmuelle-flexifloats-waterpump.jpg)
The more that gets built the more anxious folks are for it to be finished. We continue hearing comments from fishermen that it is too low in the water and will take a real beating once we start getting some waves. We haven't had any mar de fondo events for several months now, so I imagine we're due.
![[image]](http://www.zihuatanejo.net/images/temp/2019-12-30-sunrise-construcciondelmuelle.jpg)
Stocking up on beer for the day for just one of the restaurants. Right after I snapped this photo a fishing panga came roaring in between all these boats full of people and supplies, causing folks to lose their balance and merchandise to rock precariously. No, they've never heard of a No Wake Zone here, and it's unlikely they ever will.
![[image]](http://www.zihuatanejo.net/images/temp/2019-12-30-wide-minipier-pangas-canallassalinas.jpg)
A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by jaui
, Zihuatanejo, Monday, December 30, 2019, 14:11 (2298 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
30 Diciembre del 2019
Would you know, or have any statistics that indicate that the majority of the "more middle- and upper-class Mexican families" stay in Ixtapa, rather than in Z "town"?
--
jaui
A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by ZihuaRob
, Zihuatanejo, México, Monday, December 30, 2019, 14:33 (2298 days ago) @ jaui
30 Diciembre del 2019
Would you know, or have any statistics that indicate that the majority of the "more middle- and upper-class Mexican families" stay in Ixtapa, rather than in Z "town"?
I don't believe reliable stats exist, but Ixtapa was sustained for the best part of 3 decades by middle- and upper-class Mexicans. They also put Zihuatanejo on the tourist map to begin with. Most of those luxury homes around the golf courses and on the other side of the Marina belong to them. But one of the notable changes during the past couple of decades is the decline in local spending by these folks as they travel less to the region and visit Zihuatanejo less. Used to be every year we'd see rich and famous dining and walking around keeping a low profile. Families of well off Mexicans can still be seen here but in greatly reduced numbers from previous years. Homes and condos that sold for top dollar a decade or two ago can't seem to find buyers at HALF the price nowadays. It's a buyers' market but no one is buying.
A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by zulualpha, Monday, December 30, 2019, 16:08 (2298 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
The construction of the new pier is meant to bring in more cruise ships. The "average" passenger on board, we would suggest, will be at least comparable, in spending power, to the "average" upper middle-class Mexican. But Zihua´s downtown core will not benefit from those relatively well-healed cruise ship passengers; most will be whisked off to Ixtapa and other destinations to spend their money. Tour companies operating here will see to that. They know their market.
Mexican lower middle-class tourism, these days crowding Zihua and the presence of which you somewhat lament, is quite likely the fastest growing tourist sector in the country. (International tourism was down almost two percent last season). So if that´s the trend, and destinations like Zihua are at the forefront of that trend, then shouldn´t we be pleased, as the opening line of your post first suggested?
A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by Zihuaholic, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 09:25 (2297 days ago) @ zulualpha
I will refrain from labeling the most prevalent tourist group in ZIH during the holiday season as "lower middle-class". Those types of categories can be problematic at the best of times, and I have insufficient information to assess whether those predominantly arriving on buses are representative of Mexico's "lower middle-class". I prefer to call them National Tourists, which reflects the fact that they are Mexicans enjoying the splendor of their beautiful coast line.
It is wonderful that Mexicans are, in increasing numbers, getting to enjoy their coast. Having said that, I very much doubt that by any rational economic analysis, the increase in the quantity of National Tourists to ZIH is a trend that should be celebrated.
This tourist group places an enormous burden on the town's infrastructure. Beaches become virtually impassable. There is a noticeable increase in the quantity of garbage and effluent on the streets, which become clogged with buses in which many of these visitors appear to both arrive and sleep in while visiting town. Save for those who patronize the taco restaurants whose plastic chairs and tables periodically clog the pedestrian arteries, I would suggest this group of tourists presents a net economic loss to the town.
The foregoing poses two challenges. Firstly, there is the burden on infrastructure described above. Secondly, the over-crowding and the town's failure and/or inability to address the strain these crowds place on it will increasingly deter other tourists from spending time in ZIH in the winter, particularly any time around the (lengthy) Christmas holiday season and/or Semana Santa.
My sense is that the "responsible authorities" (the same ones that fail to consistently set and/or enforce rules relating to noise and/or chairs and tables in the streets) may not be receptive to constructive feedback aimed at addressing the issues the growth in National Tourists presents. With that said, I would suggest the best way to address the issue would be to enforce rules with respect to where and how many buses can park in town, and with respect to the use of those buses as rolling motels. Recognizing that these challenges are not going away, affordable (if not free...) shower and bathroom facilities should be constructed. The number of garbage cans should be increased, and the schedule for emptying them increased, and streets should be cleaned / washed down during peak times. Perhaps some of these costs could be funded by imposing modest charges on the buses that are the transportation mode of choice for many of these families.
A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by mosesk
, Ojai, CA, USA, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 10:48 (2297 days ago) @ Zihuaholic
I will refrain from labeling the most prevalent tourist group in ZIH during the holiday season as "lower middle-class". Those types of categories can be problematic at the best of times, and I have insufficient information to assess whether those predominantly arriving on buses are representative of Mexico's "lower middle-class". I prefer to call them National Tourists, which reflects the fact that they are Mexicans enjoying the splendor of their beautiful coast line.
It is wonderful that Mexicans are, in increasing numbers, getting to enjoy their coast. Having said that, I very much doubt that by any rational economic analysis, the increase in the quantity of National Tourists to ZIH is a trend that should be celebrated.
This tourist group places an enormous burden on the town's infrastructure. Beaches become virtually impassable. There is a noticeable increase in the quantity of garbage and effluent on the streets, which become clogged with buses in which many of these visitors appear to both arrive and sleep in while visiting town. Save for those who patronize the taco restaurants whose plastic chairs and tables periodically clog the pedestrian arteries, I would suggest this group of tourists presents a net economic loss to the town.
The foregoing poses two challenges. Firstly, there is the burden on infrastructure described above. Secondly, the over-crowding and the town's failure and/or inability to address the strain these crowds place on it will increasingly deter other tourists from spending time in ZIH in the winter, particularly any time around the (lengthy) Christmas holiday season and/or Semana Santa.
My sense is that the "responsible authorities" (the same ones that fail to consistently set and/or enforce rules relating to noise and/or chairs and tables in the streets) may not be receptive to constructive feedback aimed at addressing the issues the growth in National Tourists presents. With that said, I would suggest the best way to address the issue would be to enforce rules with respect to where and how many buses can park in town, and with respect to the use of those buses as rolling motels. Recognizing that these challenges are not going away, affordable (if not free...) shower and bathroom facilities should be constructed. The number of garbage cans should be increased, and the schedule for emptying them increased, and streets should be cleaned / washed down during peak times. Perhaps some of these costs could be funded by imposing modest charges on the buses that are the transportation mode of choice for many of these families.
Rob- I appreciate your analysis and suggestions as to this particular segment of the tourist industry and accompanying phenomena, especially as it is likely I will be spending quite a bit of time in Zihuatanejo in the upcoming years.
I wonder if you can take your analysis a bit further and give your thoughts on how tourism morphed from the way you describe it in the past to where it is now?
And also are there any relevant comparisons to other similar towns/resorts? that can help understand ways to approach the current situation.
The world is undergoing vast significant cultural/economic/political/climactic changes and perhaps what we are seeing here is a reflection/indication of this?
La Evolución del Turismo Social en Zihuatanejo
by ZihuaRob
, Zihuatanejo, México, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 12:21 (2297 days ago) @ mosesk
Are you asking me or Zihuaholic?
I recall the turning point in Zihuatanejo's evolution where we lost our prosperous future. It has actually happened twice, the first time being the arrival of the federal government wanting to build Ixtapa in Zihuatanejo, eventually deciding on the next bay to the north after finding resistance among locals to giving up their homes and lands. The development of Ixtapa stole Zihuatanejo's prosperity for wealthy and well connected outsiders.
I also recall the first time I participated in a local political meeting at the invitation of my wife back in 1990 when the mayor was her cousin. They were debating spending a huge sum of money to remodel Paseo del Pescador (déjù vu), and a huge amate tree had already been cut down in the zócalo and most locals were quite understandably upset about it so the meeting room at the old Palacio Municipal in front of the zócalo was crowded to capacity. After listening to the presentation by the mayor and his underlings about the wonderful new modern look our waterfront and plaza would have and seeing that absolutely no one was going to speak up to question anything of substance or offer any alternatives, even though I was still technically a tourist at the time and my Spanish was far from fluent, I felt obliged to offer my dos centavitos, so I calmly and clearly suggested to my wife's cousin that the money would be much better spent on infrastructure such as sewage treatment because essentially all they were doing was putting makeup on a patient dying of cancer because the deteriorating water quality in the bay was already noticeable and I thought the time was then to nip that problem in the bud. There were a few seconds of silence after I stopped speaking and I wondered if I was about to get fed to the sharks or disappeared. But my wife's cousin broke into that wonderful grin of his as if he understood me perfectly well and thanked me for my opinion. I later learned that no one had ever spoken in that manner to our presidente municipal, and it wasn't until about 15 or 20 years later that I heard other people here speak up similarly saying practically the same thing I said about a similar remodeling project. Now of course speaking up (not just complaining) is much more common thanks to groups of professionals and concerned citizens who form organizations to represent segments of our society. But at the time I was a novelty way ahead of the times. I earned my wife's cousin's respect that day and we enjoyed a very warm relationship afterwards, and it also turned out that I was right about infrastructure since we eventually had a terrible time with failing wastewater treatment plants and we still have outdated infrastructure in place in parts of town from that same period that the city is trying to play catch-up finding and replacing. So I like to think I at least set an example or cracked the door open a bit that others would eventually follow.
But the most devastating turning point in our history occurred with the first opposition party mayor in 2002 who welcomed the land invasions of our hillsides that forever eliminated the prosperous and healthy future Zihuatanejo had previously envisioned for itself and counted on, and all of a sudden a much bleaker future appeared before us, with insurmountable problems for which we would never have the funding to fix. What was even more frustrating was to see well-meaning but rather poorly informed foreigners help those land invaders to carry out their fechorías. Something that unfortunately continues to this day.
Regarding tourism, the biggest impact came with the building of the Autopista Siglo XXI from here to Morelia that allowed folks from El Bajío region to come here much more easily. The first tour buses we used to get were often from Mexico City coming up from Acapulco, and they were so few that we really didn't complain too much about them parking at La Ropa or wherever, although they eventually caused my mother to move to Ixtapa from La Ropa after the La Ropa road through the huerta was paved because they would often park in front of her home and she couldn't stand the noise and diesel fumes all day long. But with the completion of the autopista, tour operators inland saw a new economic opportunity and they began selling cheap tours, so many that we now have some real problems because of too many low-budget tourists. Buses have always been the preferred mode of travel for all classes of Mexicans. The buses were and still are often quite luxurious, and if you take a tour with a group of friends the costs are quite reasonable. So to say all bus tourists are middle- or lower-class is a huge mistake. The difference is what those buses do when they get here. If you visit any other destination by bus you arrive at a bus terminal and from there take a taxi or bus or other form of public transportation to the beach or the zócalo or even to your hotel. But because buses have always been allowed in Ixtapa it followed logically that tour operators would send them directly to La Ropa Beach even though we consider La Ropa a special beach for tourists with at least moderate purchasing power. But these new tourists bring everything with them including their food, and many don't even spend a night in any local lodging like they used to. However, enough patronize the illegal restaurants and the wandering vendors that those people and their families fight for the buses' "right" to arrive to La Ropa, and then politics gets involved because these ambulantes represent blocs of voters. Thus the new concrete mercadito at La Ropa where ambulantes were put 30 years ago to get them off the beach, something that was supposed to be temporary and in fact that never worked. Now those folks claim "rights" they don't have, but hey, there's that brand spanking new mercado that was built thanks to a public contract and a mayor with a concrete company hoping to get re-elected. But I digress.
The other part of the equation gumming up the works are the bureaucrats and political appointees who work in government tourist offices who seek to justify their jobs by providing what we know locally as "cifras alegres" or "happy stats" regarding the arrival of tourists. They never really concern themselves with the purchasing power of tourists although they like to overestimate the spending particularly by cruise ship passengers and tourists in general. Inflated numbers with obscure origins help them look good in front of their bosses and help them justify and keep their jobs, so the more warm bodies they can count INSTEAD OF RACK ROOM OCCUPANCY, a more reliable number for tourism officials, the better it makes them look. That's where the "turismo social" as we call it puts the cream on the tacos for these public tourist industry officials and bureaucrats. I have always been for the elimination of the state and federal tourism offices because I believe tourism is best promoted by locals. Zihuatanejo has been touted for decades as part of the "Triangulo del Sol", something we never asked for and frankly want no part of, and as we've witnessed and always knew, Acapulco is where most of the attention goes, including federal and state budgets, because so many politicians and their supporting "influyentes" have economic interests there. A local community tourism office funded by local hotels and tourism-dependent services should be able to promote the local region more adequately and efficiently.
La Evolución del Turismo Social en Zihuatanejo
by mosesk
, Ojai, CA, USA, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 13:17 (2297 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
Are you asking me or Zihuaholic?
I recall the turning point in Zihuatanejo's evolution where we lost our prosperous future. It has actually happened twice, the first time being the arrival of the federal government wanting to build Ixtapa in Zihuatanejo, eventually deciding on the next bay to the north after finding resistance among locals to giving up their homes and lands. The development of Ixtapa stole Zihuatanejo's prosperity for wealthy and well connected outsiders.
I also recall the first time I participated in a local political meeting at the invitation of my wife back in 1990 when the mayor was her cousin. They were debating spending a huge sum of money to remodel Paseo del Pescador (déjù vu), and a huge amate tree had already been cut down in the zócalo and most locals were quite understandably upset about it so the meeting room at the old Palacio Municipal in front of the zócalo was crowded to capacity. After listening to the presentation by the mayor and his underlings about the wonderful new modern look our waterfront and plaza would have and seeing that absolutely no one was going to speak up to question anything of substance or offer any alternatives, even though I was still technically a tourist at the time and my Spanish was far from fluent, I felt obliged to offer my dos centavitos, so I calmly and clearly suggested to my wife's cousin that the money would be much better spent on infrastructure such as sewage treatment because essentially all they were doing was putting makeup on a patient dying of cancer because the deteriorating water quality in the bay was already noticeable and I thought the time was then to nip that problem in the bud. There were a few seconds of silence after I stopped speaking and I wondered if I was about to get fed to the sharks or disappeared. But my wife's cousin broke into that wonderful grin of his as if he understood me perfectly well and thanked me for my opinion. I later learned that no one had ever spoken in that manner to our presidente municipal, and it wasn't until about 15 or 20 years later that I heard other people here speak up similarly saying practically the same thing I said about a similar remodeling project. Now of course speaking up (not just complaining) is much more common thanks to groups of professionals and concerned citizens who form organizations to represent segments of our society. But at the time I was a novelty way ahead of the times. I earned my wife's cousin's respect that day and we enjoyed a very warm relationship afterwards, and it also turned out that I was right about infrastructure since we eventually had a terrible time with failing wastewater treatment plants and we still have outdated infrastructure in place in parts of town from that same period that the city is trying to play catch-up finding and replacing. So I like to think I at least set an example or cracked the door open a bit that others would eventually follow.
But the most devastating turning point in our history occurred with the first opposition party mayor in 2002 who welcomed the land invasions of our hillsides that forever eliminated the prosperous and healthy future Zihuatanejo had previously envisioned for itself and counted on, and all of a sudden a much bleaker future appeared before us, with insurmountable problems for which we would never have the funding to fix. What was even more frustrating was to see well-meaning but rather poorly informed foreigners help those land invaders to carry out their fechorías. Something that unfortunately continues to this day.
Regarding tourism, the biggest impact came with the building of the Autopista Siglo XXI from here to Morelia that allowed folks from El Bajío region to come here much more easily. The first tour buses we used to get were often from Mexico City coming up from Acapulco, and they were so few that we really didn't complain too much about them parking at La Ropa or wherever, although they eventually caused my mother to move to Ixtapa from La Ropa after the La Ropa road through the huerta was paved because they would often park in front of her home and she couldn't stand the noise and diesel fumes all day long. But with the completion of the autopista, tour operators inland saw a new economic opportunity and they began selling cheap tours, so many that we now have some real problems because of too many low-budget tourists. Buses have always been the preferred mode of travel for all classes of Mexicans. The buses were and still are often quite luxurious, and if you take a tour with a group of friends the costs are quite reasonable. So to say all bus tourists are middle- or lower-class is a huge mistake. The difference is what those buses do when they get here. If you visit any other destination by bus you arrive at a bus terminal and from there take a taxi or bus or other form of public transportation to the beach or the zócalo or even to your hotel. But because buses have always been allowed in Ixtapa it followed logically that tour operators would send them directly to La Ropa Beach even though we consider La Ropa a special beach for tourists with at least moderate purchasing power. But these new tourists bring everything with them including their food, and many don't even spend a night in any local lodging like they used to. However, enough patronize the illegal restaurants and the wandering vendors that those people and their families fight for the buses' "right" to arrive to La Ropa, and then politics gets involved because these ambulantes represent blocs of voters. Thus the new concrete mercadito at La Ropa where ambulantes were put 30 years ago to get them off the beach, something that was supposed to be temporary and in fact that never worked. Now those folks claim "rights" they don't have, but hey, there's that brand spanking new mercado that was built thanks to a public contract and a mayor with a concrete company hoping to get re-elected. But I digress.
The other part of the equation gumming up the works are the bureaucrats and political appointees who work in government tourist offices who seek to justify their jobs by providing what we know locally as "cifras alegres" or "happy stats" regarding the arrival of tourists. They never really concern themselves with the purchasing power of tourists although they like to overestimate the spending particularly by cruise ship passengers and tourists in general. Inflated numbers with obscure origins help them look good in front of their bosses and help them justify and keep their jobs, so the more warm bodies they can count INSTEAD OF RACK ROOM OCCUPANCY, a more reliable number for tourism officials, the better it makes them look. That's where the "turismo social" as we call it puts the cream on the tacos for these public tourist industry officials and bureaucrats. I have always been for the elimination of the state and federal tourism offices because I believe tourism is best promoted by locals. Zihuatanejo has been touted for decades as part of the "Triangulo del Sol", something we never asked for and frankly want no part of, and as we've witnessed and always knew, Acapulco is where most of the attention goes, including federal and state budgets, because so many politicians and their supporting "influyentes" have economic interests there. A local community tourism office funded by local hotels and tourism-dependent services should be able to promote the local region more adequately and efficiently.
Rob- I was pretty much addressing you (notice I quoted you as well as citing your name)...but certainly interested in what anyone can contribute to this discussion.
I greatly appreciate your thoughts and wealth of history and experience.
Question about Acapulco: What is the status of the tourist economy there now?
Generally I hear lots of troubling (negative) things about the general tourist climate there.
Do foreign tourists still frequent?
Do Mexicans?
I live in a small town in lower central/upper southern California- named Ojai.
It's rather tourist dependent and a haven for artists, musicians, seekers...
Several years ago, coming out of the devastating Great Recession, the local tourist agencies, real estate boards, chamber of commerce began a well funded campaign to restore the vibrant tourist economy, somewhat to the eventual dismay of some of the "locals", not really involved in tourism- who suddenly found it hard to maintain their standard of living.
Not really to compare to the situation in ZIH, but your point about "local community tourism office" is well taken.
La Evolución del Turismo Social en Zihuatanejo
by Fran
, Evanston, IL, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 14:00 (2297 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
Thank you, Rob. I appreciate the history and the analysis of changing trends in the tourist market. I appreciate your thoughtful post
It wouldn’t seem that you could or would want to regulate who comes to the area. But it would seem that you could regulate the carriers that deliver guests.
It seems a no-brainer that people should not be spending the night in busses. It’s not healthy. It’s not clean. Period. It doesn’t seem overly restrictive to say that busses should be garaged or parked in designated areas that are away from town center and beaches. And guests need overnight lodging that isn’t in a bus.
Just my thought. I’d start with the busses.
La Evolución del Turismo Social en Zihuatanejo
by ZihuaRob
, Zihuatanejo, México, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 14:28 (2297 days ago) @ Fran
Thank you, Rob. I appreciate the history and the analysis of changing trends in the tourist market. I appreciate your thoughtful post
It wouldn’t seem that you could or would want to regulate who comes to the area. But it would seem that you could regulate the carriers that deliver guests.
It seems a no-brainer that people should not be spending the night in busses. It’s not healthy. It’s not clean. Period. It doesn’t seem overly restrictive to say that busses should be garaged or parked in designated areas that are away from town center and beaches. And guests need overnight lodging that isn’t in a bus.
Just my thought. I’d start with the busses.
The tour operators don't want to change a thing because it affects their bottom line. Any suggestions that they find undesirable is met with the response "we'll just take our business elsewhere", to which I am certainly willing to call their bluff, but finding a politician or any public servant with anything resembling a backbone (especially when it jeopardizes kickbacks) is a quixotic quest.
I believe all of us here want even the poorest people to feel welcome here. I don't think any Mexican would want to deny them the pleasure of spending vacation time here even if it's only for a few hours or a day, but we can't allow anything to jeopardize the tourism our community of around 100,000 needs to sustain itself. We recently had to absorb the entire population of Vallecitos de Zaragoza, a community of about 2,000 families in the sierra of Zihuatanejo who have been forced to flee their homes due to the total neglect by all branches of government in the face of the insecurity that is affecting most of the interior regions of Guerrero much more severely than anything we see here in Zihuatanejo. All those folks are out of work now. And we cannot sustain our community on the pittance derived from our social tourism. We also can't allow or social tourism to displace or replace our tourism with the purchasing power our community needs to sustain itself. It's a no-brainer for me, but then a lot of folks with personal stakes in the bus tourism make more noise than I or other reasonable citizens are making. Even when promises and assurances are made by public servants, political expediency usually assures they are quickly forgotten. Even when taxpayers organize to present a more united front, so much of the local administration's budget comes from the federal government that apparently we're still fairly easy to ignore.
La Evolución del Turismo Social en Zihuatanejo
by ZihuaRob
, Zihuatanejo, México, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 16:47 (2297 days ago) @ ZihuaRob
And to clarify a point. I have the utmost respect for cultural norms and mores. I did not walk into a meeting at the Palacio Municipal and go into arrogant know-it-all Gringo mode and let loose some hair-brained rant. I had for some time been involved in local conversations involving people around the presidente municipal on the quality of the bay water and even though I was technically in violation of the Constitución de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos, I had been assured there would be no problem with me making my presentation.
Of course, budgets are simply packages of money to be disappeared. And even though there are some minor oversight protocols, basically the money I was arguing to save and divert to a different matter was already gone. So I was still naive on such nuances and I got played a bit. But my respectful voice (standing beside Lupita) added to others surely helped set a better example for addressing grievances than the guerrilleros, the violent protests or the devastating character assassinating that prevailed during those tense times, because this was at a very difficult period in time socio-politically when the PRD was a new violence-prone political party who believed they had just had the presidential election stolen from them.
A Faint Voice Among Zih Crowds
by Eli
, Saturday, January 04, 2020, 11:15 (2293 days ago) @ Zihuaholic
This is a practical and realistic approach. These tourists deserve a week on the beach! Zihua should do what you suggest . Those who I have watched and talked to are lovely, friendly people! The walkways and beaches are SO much cleaner than in the past!

