Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Thursday, May 18, 2023, 12:51 (16 days ago)

The Governor of New Nuevo León, Mexico, Samuel Garcia, revealed Kia’s plans on his Twitter this week, initially saying Kia once again bets on Nuevo Leon with a “billion dollar investment to expand its plant and produce two Kia car models” later editing out the billion.

With the new planned investment, Garcia says, “We will be the state that produces the most electric car models: the Tesla model, the KIA model, and the Navistar electric truck.”

https://electrek.co/2023/05/17/kia-and-hyundai-to-build-evs-in-mexico-for-ira-tax-credit-eligibility/

Is there any reasonable basis on which to think that Mexico might start to promote the sale of BEVs?

I know it might be a stretch, given that Mexico benefits financially from its global-warming petrochemical industries. But Mexico also stands to suffer from global warming; weather disasters from climate change; and infrastructure damage to tourism, housing, and shipping due to rising sea levels. I think of the number of homes and businesses in Troncones that would be threatened by a rise of 1 to 1.5 meters of sea level.

I want to buy a vehicle in Mexico, but not one that will contribute to “tailpipe” GHGs. So far, buying a BEV in Mexico seems to be impractical.

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Thursday, May 18, 2023, 14:50 (16 days ago) @ Little Guy

The Governor of New Nuevo León, Mexico, Samuel Garcia, revealed Kia’s plans on his Twitter this week, initially saying Kia once again bets on Nuevo Leon with a “billion dollar investment to expand its plant and produce two Kia car models” later editing out the billion.

With the new planned investment, Garcia says, “We will be the state that produces the most electric car models: the Tesla model, the KIA model, and the Navistar electric truck.”

https://electrek.co/2023/05/17/kia-and-hyundai-to-build-evs-in-mexico-for-ira-tax-credit-eligibility/

Is there any reasonable basis on which to think that Mexico might start to promote the sale of BEVs?

I know it might be a stretch, given that Mexico benefits financially from its global-warming petrochemical industries. But Mexico also stands to suffer from global warming; weather disasters from climate change; and infrastructure damage to tourism, housing, and shipping due to rising sea levels. I think of the number of homes and businesses in Troncones that would be threatened by a rise of 1 to 1.5 meters of sea level.

I want to buy a vehicle in Mexico, but not one that will contribute to “tailpipe” GHGs. So far, buying a BEV in Mexico seems to be impractical.

Mexico is producing its own EV.
Zacua, el auto eléctrico mexicano; AQUÍ te decimos cuánto cuesta y dónde adquirirlo

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Thursday, May 18, 2023, 22:35 (15 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Yes, I explored the Zacua a few years ago. Unfortunately, it didn’t seem to meet several of my expectations of a vehicle. Both levels are two-seaters, which would make it impractical for picking up people at the airport or driving them anywhere. The cargo capacity is small which would make it challenging taking dogs to the veterinarian, etc. The charging system is limited to J1772, meaning no DCFC charging. I couldn’t find that it has any collision safety rating.

The Zacua seems to be a niche vehicle that would fit well for a daily commuting vehicle, especially in a place like Mexico City as it is exempt from no hoy circula. Unfortunately, my needs are not consistent with that niche.

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by frostbite @, Hamilton MT, Thursday, May 18, 2023, 16:07 (16 days ago) @ Little Guy

What's a BEV? We have a Honda hybrid CRV, which makes more sense than an EV when you take longer trips.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Padrino ⌂ @, San Diego/Rosarito, Thursday, May 18, 2023, 21:56 (15 days ago) @ frostbite

What's a BEV? We have a Honda hybrid CRV, which makes more sense than an EV when you take longer trips.

BEV stands for Battery Electric Vehicle. Without an effective charging network, you would not want to use a BEV for long trips.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Friday, May 19, 2023, 17:41 (15 days ago) @ Padrino

BEV stands for Battery Electric Vehicle. Without an effective charging network, you would not want to use a BEV for long trips.

Yes, that is the kind of “promoting BEV usage” that I think is important and doable.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Friday, May 19, 2023, 17:40 (15 days ago) @ frostbite

I think that a hybrid vehicle is now a poor choice. It has the higher purchase price over the same-model ICE trim, yet it has the same maintenance costs as the ICE equivalent.

From a global warming perspective, I think the time of the benefit of hybrids has come and gone.

I say the above as a former hybrid promoter. I was the first Canadian consumer purchaser of Toyota’s Prius Gen 2. That was way back in 2004. (Steven Page “bought” the first one, but that was a promotional event and he donated the car for charitable purpose.)

My family owned Prii through to 2019. My wife still owns a 2019 pluggable hybrid Volt. It uses one tank of gas a year with the rest of the driving being electric.

Now, buying a hybrid is buying into years of perpetuating dependence on climate changing fossil fuels.

The average age of vehicles on American roads continues to climb, with the figure now reaching 12.1 years, according to research from IHS Markit.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33457915/average-age-vehicles-on-road-12-years/

My interest is in having a vehicle that can get me around like my BEV in Canada. But for that to happen, there needs to be infrastructure.

In British Columbia where I live, driving a BEV became much more practical after the government directed the provincial electric authority (BC Hydro) to install DC Fast Chargers along the highway system. The plan is for 145 sites with 325 stations by 2025. This is in a province with a population of only 5 million.

https://www.bchydro.com/content/dam/BCHydro/customer-portal/documents/power-smart/electric-vehicles/ev-5-year-ev-fast-charging-network-deployment-p...

I’m hoping that the Mexican federal government might direct CFE to do something similar.

In Mexico, Tesla has SuperChargers in strategic locations at Acapulco, Chilpancingo, Cuernavaca, and Mexico City. But there is nothing to get between Acapulco and Morelia.

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by frostbite @, Hamilton MT, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 05:26 (14 days ago) @ Little Guy

I've been accused of being a tree-hugger for many years. Our house is highly energy-efficient, with solar electricity generation and water heating. We recycle what we can. It takes a 50-mile drive to do so, but we combine that with our weekly shopping trip to Missoula. There are no public vehicle charging stations in our area, that I'm aware of. When I first heard of electric vehicles, charging took several hours. Presumably, that has gotten better. In Montana about half the electricity is generated by fossil fuels. While I'm keenly aware of our climate problems, when it became time to replace our old car. we opted for a hybrid Honda CRV, which gets around 40 miles per gallon of gas. My truck, used as little as possible, gets around half that. Am I in love with the Honda? Not particularly. All that electronic stuff is a pain for an old fart but, all in all, it helps us do our little bit for the climate. Bottom line: there are many things to consider before getting that new vehicle.

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by qwerty @, Oregon, USA, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 08:58 (14 days ago) @ frostbite

I've been accused of being a tree-hugger for many years. Our house is highly energy-efficient, with solar electricity generation and water heating. We recycle what we can. It takes a 50-mile drive to do so, but we combine that with our weekly shopping trip to Missoula. There are no public vehicle charging stations in our area, that I'm aware of. When I first heard of electric vehicles, charging took several hours. Presumably, that has gotten better. In Montana about half the electricity is generated by fossil fuels. While I'm keenly aware of our climate problems, when it became time to replace our old car. we opted for a hybrid Honda CRV, which gets around 40 miles per gallon of gas. My truck, used as little as possible, gets around half that. Am I in love with the Honda? Not particularly. All that electronic stuff is a pain for an old fart but, all in all, it helps us do our little bit for the climate. Bottom line: there are many things to consider before getting that new vehicle.

I still struggle to understand where the electricity comes from that powers electric vehicles. Here in Oregon, we used to get much of our electricity from hydro power, but dams are being removed so that source is disappearing as it was also damaging to the environment. Is there really enough electricity being produced by solar and wind to remove fossil fuels as a source for powering electric vehicles? Until I'm convinced that's the case, I'll hold off purchasing an electric-only vehicle. In 2005 I bought a 2003 Honda Civic hybrid and loved the gas mileage, although I do very little highway driving so didn't see the full benefit. Bought a Subaru Impreza in 2017 and sold the Civic to my sister who is still driving it and loving her gas mileage. My gas mileage isn't as good but I love the weight and handling capability of my Subaru. Since I only drive about 3,000 miles per year my carbon footprint is smaller than most. I would love to not having to deal with gas stations, however.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 11:07 (14 days ago) @ qwerty

In Oregon, about 50% of electricity is non-GHG generated.

https://www.oregon.gov/energy/energy-oregon/pages/electricity-mix-in-oregon.aspx#:~:text=%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B,%2C%20wind%2...

In British Columbia where I live over 90% is non-GHG generated.

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-british-col...

But even where electricity is produced using GHG fuels, a BEV is substantially better for global warming purposes.

Under current conditions, driving an electric car is better for the climate than conventional petrol cars in 95% of the world, the study finds.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=6f88e6212320

In Oregon for example, driving a Tesla Model 3 produces 80 gms of carbon per mile (including “upstream emissions, i.e., electric power generation). The same car would produce 110 gms per mile as the US average. The Average New Gasoline Vehicle's Total Emissions is a whopping 410 gms per mile.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?year=2023&vehicleId=46206&zipCode=97229&action=bt3

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Padrino ⌂ @, San Diego/Rosarito, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 11:56 (14 days ago) @ Little Guy

Tackling global change and climate change will need a multi-pronged approach. Some companies are working on electric cars with solar panels. Here is the one company that Your Humble Fellow Zihua Lover believes may just get it right:

https://aptera.us/

For areas with lots of sunshine, depending upon your driving needs, this car will be using most of all its energy from the sun. That is, if they don't go bankrupt first.

As mentioned, battery electric vehicles do have a much lower carbon footprint. However, many in the industry, including the previous CEO of Toyota, have pointed out that the lithium and some of the other elements needed are simply not in sufficient supply to build all the cars that the world needs. "Toyota can produce eight 40-mile plug-in hybrids for every one 320-mile battery electric vehicle and save up to eight times the carbon emitted into the atmosphere," according to prepared remarks for Toyoda provided to media.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Sunday, May 21, 2023, 09:31 (13 days ago) @ Padrino

Tackling global change and climate change will need a multi-pronged approach. Some companies are working on electric cars with solar panels. Here is the one company that Your Humble Fellow Zihua Lover believes may just get it right:

https://aptera.us/

Yes, that car is interesting. I have a deposit in place for years to buy one.

I also had a deposit on this car…

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/b-c-based-electrameccanica-will-build-solo-cars-in-arizona

… this car…

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/electra-meccanica-reveals-tofino-chassis-and-solo-at-2018-vancouver-international-auto-show-678215053.html

… and a CyberTruck.

So far, the only BEV on my list that was actually delivered is a Tesla Model 3 that I didn’t have to pre-order. :-)


As mentioned, battery electric vehicles do have a much lower carbon footprint. However, many in the industry, including the previous CEO of Toyota, have pointed out that the lithium and some of the other elements needed are simply not in sufficient supply to build all the cars that the world needs. "Toyota can produce eight 40-mile plug-in hybrids for every one 320-mile battery electric vehicle and save up to eight times the carbon emitted into the atmosphere," according to prepared remarks for Toyoda provided to media.

I think the operational words there are “previous CEO”. ;-)

In Mexican politics there were PRI members who were referred to as dinosaurs. They refused to embrace change. Some of them maintained their intransigence through to the end of the PRI dynasty. Toyota might be suffering in the same way.

From Toyoda’s own words,

Toyoda, the 66-year-old grandson of the company’s founder, described his own limitations while speaking to reporters on Thursday.

“Because of my strong passion for cars, I am an old-fashioned person in regards to digitalization, electric vehicles, and connected cars. I cannot go beyond being a car guy, and that is my limitation,” he said, according to the FT. “The new team can do what I can’t do…I now need to take a step back in order to let young people enter the new chapter of what the future of mobility should be like.”

https://fortune.com/2023/01/26/toyota-ceo-to-step-aside-welcomes-new-generation-of-leadership/

I liked my Toyotas. I wish Toyoda and Toyota had moved more quickly and decisively to embrace ZEVs.

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by hromero ⌂ @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 13:23 (14 days ago) @ Little Guy

:megusta: :bump:

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Quadra Paul @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 20:57 (13 days ago) @ frostbite

Like where you live, and the charging infrastructure close by! if you live in an urban environment that's one thing, but if you don't that's another! Duh!

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by frostbite @, Hamilton MT, Sunday, May 21, 2023, 05:57 (13 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

WTF?

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Sunday, May 21, 2023, 07:33 (13 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

Like where you live, and the charging infrastructure close by! if you live in an urban environment that's one thing, but if you don't that's another! Duh!

Charging infrastructure is important, which is why I have this fantasy that AMLO will adopt a long-term perspective on global warming and direct CFE to start building the EV charging infrastructure.

AMLO is in the presidential stage of defining his legacy. So many past presidents have used this phase to enrich themselves. AMLO can use it to benefit future generations.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by midalake @, Sunday, May 21, 2023, 10:58 (13 days ago) @ Little Guy

Like where you live, and the charging infrastructure close by! if you live in an urban environment that's one thing, but if you don't that's another! Duh!


Charging infrastructure is important, which is why I have this fantasy that AMLO will adopt a long-term perspective on global warming and direct CFE to start building the EV charging infrastructure.

AMLO is in the presidential stage of defining his legacy. So many past presidents have used this phase to enrich themselves. AMLO can use it to benefit future generations.

No one needs king AMLO to direct anything. However, because energy is still run by government cartels {CFE}. The people will always suffer compared to a capitalist market.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Monday, May 22, 2023, 12:09 (12 days ago) @ Quadra Paul

Like where you live, and the charging infrastructure close by! if you live in an urban environment that's one thing, but if you don't that's another! Duh!

I seem to manage OK having had a BEV in non-urban Cowichan Bay, in non-urban Bowser, and having driven almost 100,000 km since I got it three years ago.

That said, more charging infrastructure would make BEV ownership psychologically easier for many and more practical for ease of driving. It could be nice to not have to do so much route planning.

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Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by hromero ⌂ @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 13:22 (14 days ago) @ Little Guy

It would be nice if Mexico decided to start promoting that type of infrastructure but I wouldn't expect it any time soon. Mexico seems to be focusing on increasing the supply of fossil fuels to become energy independent rather than focusing on increasing renewables and charging infrastructure as a way of achieving energy independence. We can only hope that a change in thinking on that matter happens soon.

--
Humberto Romero
www.casaarcoiriszihuatanejo.com

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by midalake @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 13:49 (14 days ago) @ hromero

It would be nice if Mexico decided to start promoting that type of infrastructure but I wouldn't expect it any time soon. Mexico seems to be focusing on increasing the supply of fossil fuels to become energy independent rather than focusing on increasing renewables and charging infrastructure as a way of achieving energy independence. We can only hope that a change in thinking on that matter happens soon.

Nothing is going to change until the relic that is running the country LEAVES! Heck he is still trying to create more of an electric monopoly.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Monday, May 22, 2023, 12:04 (12 days ago) @ midalake

Nothing is going to change until the relic that is running the country LEAVES! Heck he is still trying to create more of an electric monopoly.

I thought the relic that was running the country lost the election in 2020. Oh wait, you’re not referring to a failed former president, you’re referring to a popular president and a popular government.

57% Portion who say they are somewhat or very satisfied with the job AMLO's done, as of February 2023.

65% Percent of respondents who have a very good or good opinion of Morena, making it the party with the highest favorables by far.

49% of Mexicans polled intend to vote MORENA in 2024 with second-place PAN at 19%.

https://www.as-coa.org/articles/approval-tracker-mexicos-president-amlo

Electricity is a classic example of a monopoly enterprise. From Stanford University…

A natural monopoly exists when average costs continuously fall as the firm gets larger. An electric company is a classic example of a natural monopoly. Once the gargantuan fixed costs involved with power generation and power lines is payed, each additional unit of electricity costs very little; the more units sold, the more the fixed costs can be spread, creating a reasonable price for the consumer. Having two electric companies split electricity production, each with their own power source and power lines would lead to a near doubling of price. Clearly, competition, the flagship of the American economy, is not always the answer.

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/corporate-monopolies/benefits_natural.html#:~:text=Natural%20Monopolies,example%20of%20a%20n...

So who do you want having the monopoly?

Carlos Slim? :facescreaminginfear:

Some gringo corporation? :omg:

Monopolies have weaknesses as well as strengths, but it is better to have a monopoly owned by the people and accountable through an electoral system than one owned by privateers who are accountable only to wealthy blocks of shareholders.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by mindpilot @, la Playa Buenavista, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 19:30 (13 days ago) @ hromero

Mexico happens to be home to the world's largest lithium deposits. AMLO could nationalize that resource and send every Mexican citizen a check. Like they do in Alaska with the oil. I mean isn't that the whole concept of nationalizing a resource, it belongs to all the citizens?

OTOH, we have no real idea what kind of pressure AMLO is under from the big international banks, multi-national corporations and rich-country governments. And China.
Also why climate change will never really get addressed. But we can all drive EVs, install solar panels, recycle and feel like at least we are not making it (much) worse.

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by midalake @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 19:43 (13 days ago) @ mindpilot

> Mexico happens to be home to the world's largest lithium deposits. AMLO could nationalize that resource and send every Mexican citizen a check.


Mexico is not even in the top 10 countries of lithium deposits. ;-)

Kia and Hyundai to build EVs in Mexico

by Little Guy @, Saturday, May 20, 2023, 22:39 (13 days ago) @ midalake

> Mexico happens to be home to the world's largest lithium deposits. AMLO could nationalize that resource and send every Mexican citizen a check.


Mexico is not even in the top 10 countries of lithium deposits. ;-)

These statements are not mutually exclusive.

With reserves of some 244 million tonnes, lithium deposits discovered by the Canadian company Bacanora in the northeastern Mexican state of Sonora are the world’s largest, containing significantly more than the second-placed Thacker Pass site in the US state of Nevada (178 million tonnes), Mexico’s under secretary of mining Francisco Quiroga claimed in December.

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/mexico-worlds-largest-lithium-reserves-set-to-be-mined-by-company-bacanora-despite-concerns-of-...

The lithium deposits discovered in Sonora are the biggest in the world.

Other countries have multiple sites of lithium deposits, making their total reserves larger.

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Lithium

by ZihuaRob ⌂ @, Zihuatanejo, México, Sunday, May 21, 2023, 09:57 (13 days ago) @ mindpilot

Mexico happens to be home to the world's largest lithium deposits. AMLO could nationalize that resource and send every Mexican citizen a check. Like they do in Alaska with the oil. I mean isn't that the whole concept of nationalizing a resource, it belongs to all the citizens?

OTOH, we have no real idea what kind of pressure AMLO is under from the big international banks, multi-national corporations and rich-country governments. And China.
Also why climate change will never really get addressed. But we can all drive EVs, install solar panels, recycle and feel like at least we are not making it (much) worse.

Thanks to Art. 27 of the Constitución Mexicana, Mexico doesn't have to nationalize its lithium. It already belongs to the federal government. What AMLO and his government DID nationalize was the mining and exploitation of lithium so that no private enterprise can do so. The entire lithium market in Mexico belongs to the nation.

Senado de México aprueba reforma para nacionalizar la explotación de litio

Lithium

by mindpilot @, la Playa Buenavista, Sunday, May 21, 2023, 21:08 (12 days ago) @ ZihuaRob

Mexico happens to be home to the world's largest lithium deposits. AMLO could nationalize that resource and send every Mexican citizen a check. Like they do in Alaska with the oil. I mean isn't that the whole concept of nationalizing a resource, it belongs to all the citizens?

OTOH, we have no real idea what kind of pressure AMLO is under from the big international banks, multi-national corporations and rich-country governments. And China.
Also why climate change will never really get addressed. But we can all drive EVs, install solar panels, recycle and feel like at least we are not making it (much) worse.


Thanks to Art. 27 of the Constitución Mexicana, Mexico doesn't have to nationalize its lithium. It already belongs to the federal government. What AMLO and his government DID nationalize was the mining and exploitation of lithium so that no private enterprise can do so. The entire lithium market in Mexico belongs to the nation.

Senado de México aprueba reforma para nacionalizar la explotación de litio

Thank you for the clarifaction!