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Any US traveler who spent 20 years in Mexico would be fluent in Spanish also.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Kids and adolescents can pick up a language just by living there, but it doesn't work that way for adults. I'm sure Rob put in a considerable amount of effort studying Spanish to reach his level, including his very advanced understanding of the nuances. You don't pick that stuff up automatically. As an adult you have to study it the same way you'd study any other discipline. Field experience sure helps, but he would never have reached that level without a lot of study. He probably understands the grammar and nuances of the language better than most people in Guerrero do. Most expats can't say the same. What people living there for a long time pick up is the basic vocabulary to accomplish day to day tasks and communicate with the people they regularly come into contact with, such as social pleasantries, ordering at a restaurant and flirting with the waitress, numbers, things like that, but they don't reach proficiency, being able to think in the language, as adults, without a lot of effort.

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You certainly nailed that, Scott. Even with study it is not easy. At least not for me.

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You certainly nailed that, Scott. Even with study it is not easy. At least not for me.

Maybe I'm lucky, or having French as a second language helped. My Spanish is no doubt child-like and full of errors, but I seem to be able to get by when I'm there. And when I'm engaged in conversation, I believe that I'm thinking in Spanish at least somewhat. I even make jokes. When I get lucky, people correct me and if even luckier, will learn some new idiomatic expression that otherwise wouldn't strictly make grammatical sense. I usually carry a little dictionary, which has helped many times. I suppose my overall comprehension is about 50-75%. For sure, watching all these subtitled movies has helped a ton.

Years ago it would rankle me to be around other turistos who made no effort at all to speak any part of the language and insisted upon being served in English. And would repeat themselves and talk louder as if talking to a person with hearing problems ...but I'm more tolerant now. As it was explained to me... "sometimes that's all the language people have." Not everyone can be proficient or semi effective at learning a second language.

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I would call you fortunate, not lucky. I learn more Spanish every day and it sure helps, but being fluent will never happen for me and for many of the people who come here. It takes more than a couple of weeks a year being exposed to Spanish to be able to converse in it.

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A few years back I was taking a conversational Spanish class at my local community college in the evenings. About 3/4 of the way through the class Alaska airlines had a sale. So I told the teacher I was going to Mexico to practice my Spanish. I was not a whole lot better at it when I got there, than the last time I was there, about 6 months prior. So, I was sitting around with some friends and said that my problem was that all of my friends wanted to speak English, thereby depriving me of learning more Spanish, when up spoke one of my friends, known for her matter of factness (Tanya Jones)who said "Allen, excuse me, but, all of your friends speak English because you do". There went that excuse.
I do still manage to pretty much get back what I had the trip before in a couple of days time and add a word or phrase or two each time I go. But, fluent, I will never be.

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I was sitting around with some friends and said that my problem was that all of my friends wanted to speak English, thereby depriving me of learning more Spanish, when up spoke one of my friends, known for her matter of factness (Tanya Jones)who said "Allen, excuse me, but, all of your friends speak English because you do".

Tanya is exactly right. When I was relatively new here and still a fledgling Spanish speaker I found it rather simple to get past that minor problem by insisting on speaking Spanish.

No tengas miedo.

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If you can think in French, then you're a giant leap ahead of monolingual English speakers. There are two major reasons. The first is that you already know how to think in another language. Your brain knows how to associate multiple words with the same idea, but can also grasp the idea that other languages don't always "see" or understand things the same way as we do in English. Second, French and Spanish are both romance languages, so the grammatical structure of the languages and way of thinking about things are very similar. Things that might really confuse a monolingual English speaker, such as saying "I have cold" rather "I am cold" are going to make a lot more sense to you.

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If you can think in French, then you're a giant leap ahead of monolingual English speakers. There are two major reasons. The first is that you already know how to think in another language. Your brain knows how to associate multiple words with the same idea, but can also grasp the idea that other languages don't always "see" or understand things the same way as we do in English. Second, French and Spanish are both romance languages, so the grammatical structure of the languages and way of thinking about things are very similar. Things that might really confuse a monolingual English speaker, such as saying "I have cold" rather "I am cold" are going to make a lot more sense to you.

True. But then again I'm kind of used to operating in several languages and being around other people who are multilingual too.

Heck at Arnis class last night, I was paired off to to do choreographed sparring with a Korean fellow. Having trained in some Korean martial arts in years past, I remembered their word for thank you: it's KAHA-SAMNEE-DAH. I said that to him as we commenced the exercise, and he was very impressed.

last dinner party we had looked like this: Joe and Dolores..he's fluent in English, Portuguese, German and Swedish. She's fluent in English, Hungarian, Spanish and Swedish. Peter and Denise, she speaks just English, he was born in Germany, and totally fluent in English. Then Sarah and her Mother Esther...Sarah was born in Israel, speaks Hebrew and English, her Mom born in Germany but emigrated to Israel in the 1930's speaks Hebrew and German but nearly no English.

I can read and speak some Hebrew (mainly liturgically), but am not hugely conversant in it so I speak with Esther in German, With Dolores it's English and Spanish (though sometimes I'll swear a bit in Hungarian to elicit a laugh from her) and with Joe & Peter it's English and German. Imagine all this going on after a number of bottles of wine.....plus whatever we soaked up BEFORE dinner.

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plus whatever we soaked up BEFORE dinner.

And boy can he soak 'em up LOL

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plus whatever we soaked up BEFORE dinner.

And boy can he soak 'em up LOL

Gotta wash that via**a down with something!

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You've got to be careful with those tiny blue pills. If you choke on one you could get a stiff neck.

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You've got to be careful with those tiny blue pills. If you choke on one you could get a stiff neck.

Fellow was in the dentist chair. "Please don't give any needles. I'm scared of needles!" he pleaded with the dentist.

"But we have to do an extraction, I can't have you writhing around in pain." Said the dentist. "Here, take one of these blue pills!"

"Gee Doc, I know what these are but never knew that they helped with dental pain. Is this something new?"

"Not exactly. But it WILL give you something to hang onto while I give you these needles."

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Those things are fraudulent anyway. I took 12 last night and only 9 worked.

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Those things are fraudulent anyway. I took 12 last night and only 9 worked.

What were you doing? Pounding in wharf pilings in Puget Sound?

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Agreed.
I think it's a bit unfair to castigate those who travel to Mexico often but never learn or use any more than the most basic Spanish required to order a drink or meal.
First, most of us are naturally bone-lazy. And since "necessity is the mother of invention", most norte americanos traveling to Mexico, or almost anywhere else in the world, know they can get by just fine in English, so there's no pressing need to learn much, if any of the local language. In all the Mexican areas frequented by Canadian and American tourists, locals make it even easier to get by without Spanish by instantly switching to English as soon as we open our mouths.
And there's always the danger of embarrassment, which English-speakers seem to fear more than most. More on that later.
I was born and lived in Montreal, Quebec until age 35. At that time, Montreal was probably 60 or 70% French-speaking, and Quebec province probably 80% French. In Montreal, at least, the majority of French-speakers were bilingual, at least to some degree.
Most of us English Quebecers lived in communities with high percentages of other English-speakers. ("English gettos" would be an exaggeration). We had English schools, radio, TV, newspapers, films, shops, businesses, jobs, hospitals and funeral homes. When we vacationed, it was to English Ontario, or to the beaches in Maine or Florida. We were able, and most of us did, live entirely in English from cradle-to-grave. Until the late 60's, if we encountered a French-speaking Quebecer, they almost invariably switched to English. Strange, but that's the way it was. My father immigrated to Quebec from Ontario to work, lived in French-speaking Montreal for over 40 years, yet never spoke more than a half-dozen words in French - if that.
Did those of us who remained largely unilingual miss out on much of the life of the larger community? Of course we did, in the same way that not speaking Spanish insulates from the life around us in Mexico.
In my case, the French I absorbed, more by osmosis than anything else, has certainly helped with Spanish. I've been told, for example, that my Spanish pronunciation is very good. But here's where that embarrassment comes in: if you try a few words, even well-pronounced, in Spanish, the local often concludes that you are fluent, and then rattles on at warp speed until, embarrassed, you have to stop them and apologize that you don't understand what they're saying.....and "mucho mas despacio, por fa". I find my inability to speak and read Spanish a real disadvantage. It means my contacts with most Mexicans are superficial...unless they are fluent in English. Communication with someone who speaks a different language always seems to have the element of a 'winner' and a 'loser'.
On the human nature side, again, I know folks who, with the best of intentions, took very expensive Spanish immersion courses in Cuernavaca, including living with a local family for a month. Unfortunately, it was a waste of money. Their pronunciation is hopeless, their feel for the language just isn't there, and they seldom, if ever, try out what they learned. Most adults have a very hard time learning anything more than the basics.
Another less-flattering factor is that peculiar English-speakers' attitude, seen 'round the world, that says to locals, in so many words: "You want my money, you speak to me in English."

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I know folks who, with the best of intentions, took very expensive Spanish immersion courses in Cuernavaca, including living with a local family for a month. Unfortunately, it was a waste of money. Their pronunciation is hopeless, their feel for the language just isn't there, and they seldom, if ever, try out what they learned. Most adults have a very hard time learning anything more than the basics.

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I've done two immersions, one in Cuernavaca and one in Costa Rica. My wife has done several more. She took Spanish lessons twice a week for several years here at home with several friends also. For the last couple of years she has been doing other things and stopped the classes. I did not take class at home. We go to Mexico twice a year on average.

She got to where she could hold her own in a conversation with proper grammar. But with only a visit or two a year to Mexico her Spanish is deteriorating. Mine was never very good, and my second immersion was spent relearning what I learned the first time. You just can't learn a language when you use it only a month or six weeks a year.

Craig

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You just can't learn a language when you use it only a month or six weeks a year.

Where there's a will there's a way. Especially in California where you live, but really anywhere it's possible to practice if you care to. Spanish language TV is available worldwide.

Maybe you should give some thought to how you would communicate if you had to call for emergency services while here in Mexico where someone's life could be at stake. Do you even know what the Mexican equivalent of "911" is?

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I could ask for an ambulance or a doctor, but no, I don't know what the equivalent of 911 is.

Craig

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I was just thinking about idioms, that it might be nice for those posters who are more fluent in Spanish than others, to share the meanings of certain expressions. Idioms can also be localized so one used in Zihua may not apply in Morelia, for example. Laura just posted one yesterday, something azul, meaning long yearned for love, but literally translated something totally different. And that's cool to know. Often makes language more fun to learn.
They do a little weekly segment on CBC Radio on this, 'cept in French. Usually they choose a French word, often a verb and ask several fluent speakers to say a phrase using the word and then describe what it means. And depending on what French speaking area of Canada the speaker is from, the usage can be very different!
Ever get that scratchy, something in your throat feeling? In English you have 'a frog in your throat', in French, 'un chat dans ton gorge' (a cat in your throat).
So if anyone was to post some Spanish/Zihua idioms, I think many of us would benefit. Euro Spanish, Mx Spanish....
Couple more English examples:
to troll
He/She has too much baggage
Rob the cradle
The wife's still in the dark.
I was a Canada World Youth/Jeunesse Canada Monde participant a few years (HUSH!) back. I lived and worked in New Brunswick (Acadian French, forebears to the Cajuns), Lac St Jean area, Quebec (even folks from other parts of Que. had a hard time understanding) and Mali, Afrique de l'ouest. About 8 months total. I still get tongue tied (there's one!!!)when I speak, probably from lack of opportunity to use it, but my comprehension is quite good. The thing is, I am absolutely fluent when I dream, and I can & do sometimes think in French without realizing it. Some things in my brain are just better in French!
My son is in Grade 3 French Immersion. This is the first year for English, one hour a day. It was towards the end of Grade 1 that he told me that sometimes when he was thinking or speaking, he thought he was thinking/speaking in English until he realized he was doing it in French.
For the benefit of all trying to learn more, I move to share idioms! Any seconders?

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For the benefit of all trying to learn more, I move to share idioms! Any seconders?

First a thank you to Zihrob who has used his editorial prerogative to cut out and lift this piece of conversation which is of general benefit to board readers and participants.

Island Girl, in my small experience, there are not a lot of short cuts to learning idiomatic expressions, especially local ones. Veryunusual to learn them decently in a study situation, unless you have a very talented Maestro/Maestra ..other than being "in country" and with someone who also speaks English to translate on the spot and situationally..the next best thing is to watch subtitled Spanish language movies (preferably Latin American Spanish) which you can rewind and study or regular English language DVD's or videos that have Spanish subtitles, so that you are effectively learning the second language in a "reverse" way.

Two very very common and simple idiomatic expressions that I learned this way are:

"BUENAS!" Which is an abbreviated way of saying hello at any time of the day, also handy for answering the phone; and

"YA VOY" Which is like saying "Be right there!" or "I'm coming!" ..and is a good response when being called to the table for a meal, as one example.

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Yeah, I doubt if I would learn them or the ability to use them, at the introductory level. I just think these expressions are quirky, fun and somehow help appreciation of a language's agility. If you've heard it once, you will eventually come across it spoken, and you'll not be thrown for a loop!
I turn lights on & off, but Italians and others 'open & close the lights'.

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Rob's right too, about Spanish TV. We all have it. It's like an immersion. And for the guys, all those young, busty chicas, and for the gals all those overweight middle-aged hombres. Yum.

Craig

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Here turn off the lights is "make out the lights".

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As some of you may know, I'm currently a (mature) student at a small, bilingual liberal arts college in Toronto. At my school most classes are offered in both English & French, and the students are roughly 50% more proficient in or native speakers of English, and about 50% more proficient in or native speakers of French. It is mandatory that all students pass at least 6 credits in both of our official languages in order to graduate. I think it is pretty neat, and that's why I'm going way out of my way to go there, when it would be so much easier to go to the perfectly fine (albeit, stuffy and conservative) university in my hometown. Last term I was taking three classes for example - one in English, one in Spanish, and one in French. Those were all discipline classes, not language classes - Psychology in English, Latin American International Relations in Spanish, and some stupid IT class in French. Based on my knowledge of Spanish, I have every intention of B.s.ing my way through the French requirement. Instead of taking French language classes in Toronto, I took the textbook published by my school for the lower-intermediate class, and a textbook from the French version of a class on globalization I took in English, and did 175 hours intensive private lessons at the French Alliance school in Morelia. French Alliance (Alliance Français) is a chain of schools managed by the French government, with franchises all around the world. In Morelia it cost me about 150 pesos / hour at the time for the two of us, versus about $66 / hour at the French Alliance in Toronto. I was rather impressed with the teacher we had for most of it, though not so much with the occasional substitutes. Our regular teacher was Mexican, but she had been educated with a European curriculum at a private French school in Mexico City, and had not gone to regular Mexican public schools. So it was fairly close to getting a native speaker, and as a bonus, she was able to read through my textbook on globalization of culture with me, and have some appreciation for what it was talking about. I spent about 1/3rd of each session just reading through the textbook with her, and discussing the ideas with her, and the first 2/3rds working through the French language textbook and doing exercises and games with her. After my crash course in Morelia, I went back to school in Toronto and enrolled in a class in French. At our school we are allowed to take classes in either (any) language, and do our exams and essays in our native language, so we aren't penalized for trying to learn in our weaker language, other than the fact that it won't count towards proving your ability in that language if you don't do the work in that language. But the reason I say I'm kind of B.s.ing my way through it is because I "cheated" by taking the stupid IT class in French, and since I already have an advanced level of knowledge of the subject, it wasn't such a stretch to do the exams for an introductory level class in French. But I still have to do another one in French for proof as well, and I'll probably just find another dumb IT class. But anyway, I think it's pretty cool in theory, most of the students do come out genuinely bilingual. And with the IR class taught in Spanish, I still did my written work in English, but we got to learn about stuff in Spanish, from a truer Latin American perspective, reading stuff written by Latin American authors for example, rather than just people from Canada/USA interpreting what the situation is elsewhere.

For me, this is the one of best ways to learn. Learn actual stuff in your target language, not just studying boring grammar rules and vocabulary lists. The other best way is to date someone whose native language is the one you want to learn You'll be a lot more immersed in the culture, talking beyond a superficial level with their friends and family, and so on.

When I'm in the car driving I'll often listen to Radio-Canada (French CBC), or occasionally watch a movie on one of the French channels on TV, I listen to podcasts in French, and so on. I try and read articles from the French (European) news sites. I watched the election debates in both languages. I find our fearless leader and other anglophone politicians are not all that hard to understand when they speak French.

So I have some comprehension of French, and of course took French all through elementary school and into high school which was quickly forgotten the same way most Mexican students never really learn English even though they take it all through their junior high and highschool level studies.

But I've never had much opportunity to actually speak French, and when I've been in Quebec, most of the people where I went as a tourist reverted to English with me. Except for one jerkoff who pumped my gas and wouldn't tell us where the washrooms were, pretended he didn't understand "toilet", "toilettes", "washroom", "bathroom", off the highway about 15km from the border with New York, yeah right. You try and learn both official languages and that's how some want to treat you for the effort. Luckily, most people in Mexico aren't like that. I think it is probably a whole lot easier to practice your Spanish in Mexico than it is to practice French in Quebec.

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If this thread is a representative example of what people have done to learn a little or a lot of Spanish to visit Mexico, pity those whose travels take them to several countries.

Craig

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It's not about how much Spanish or whatever language you do or do not know. What it's really about is making an effort to communicate with the people, and learning about them and their culture. Knowing the language greatly facilitates that. But you don't need a high level of ability to start doing that, you just need to get out there and start trying.

It's the difference between vacationing and travelling. A vacationer doesn't really care to learn the language or to connect with the people at anything beyond a superficial level. They are there to relax, get some R&R, lay on the beach, maybe eat some good food or party in the discotheques, a lot of vacationers will do a fair bit of drinking, the cheaper the booze the better. They may visit a token historical or cultural site or two, but that's really not why they are there. A traveller, on the other hand, is someone who does wish to learn about the culture of where he is visiting, to learn more about the people and their history, and see different sites, or cities or towns.

Staying 1-week at a generic AI resort is typically what you would consider vacationing. It doesn't really matter where you go, Ixtapa, Varadero, Cancun, Surfer's Paradise, whatever, it's all pretty much the same. Travelling is when you seek to go beyond that. So if you're content with vacationing, that's your decision. But you won't get anywhere near the same experience as if you make that effort to go beyond that.

For example, in the last year or so, I've been to Cuba, Taiwan, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and a very brief stop in your neck of the woods, to go get some real tacos in the mission district on my way to Asia. My experiences on my two trips to Cuba, for example, were very different from 99.9% percent of everyone else who goes there. Because I speak Spanish, I could talk to pretty much anyone I wanted to off the resort (except in Varadero). Not that you would ever want to, but even if you did, you will never have that experience of pulling out of the resort in the rental car and picking up your first hitch-hiker 5 minutes later (in the middle of nowhere - isolated resort), and then going back and partying with his extended family a few days later, roasting a pig, dancing salsa and pretty much getting them all hammered on cheap rum. Instead, all you will ever know is what the propaganda tells you, you'll never be able to get the booze flowing and them speaking more freely, getting a better idea of how they really feel and think about stuff. If that sounds completely silly to you, then you're probably not a traveller at heart, but rather a vacationer.

I only booked a 1-day stopover in Taiwan, there was no reason to learn Chinese. But I still took a city bus from the airport into town, walked all around, went to a national museum, etc., typical stuff, but that's ok because it was just a brief glimpse, I know that. But in Bali, where I was for two months, I spent a fair bit of time hanging out with the Indonesian people there. There is a whole country there with 240 million people that most of us here know virtually nothing about. I spent many hours talking with the maid, between her broken English and my iPod dictionary, we made out. I don't speak their language at all, not Indonesian let alone Balinese, but I still hung out with them, trying to communicate, I even hung out with the maid at her house with her family, eating rice and drinking arak (moonshine) with them, she took me to the temples with her and stuff, I don't care, I'll jump on the back of a scooter with a Balinese peasant, I even did it with strangers who simply stopped and asked where I was going. And like that you can learn about other people in the world and their cultures. But it's about making that effort, whatever way is most comfortable for you, not so much about having impeccable grammar, or even any grammar skills at all. That is what travel is about, and it is distinct from vacationing. I was in Thailand for three weeks, and it would have been completely unreasonable to learn Thai. I just hung out in Phuket for that whole time, which was a lot of fun, but I don't really feel like I learned a whole lot about Thailand, other than the fact that it was way different than I ever expected, based on stupid, warped puritanical views in North America. Luckily Phuket was full of awesome people from all over Europe, Asia, Australia & New Zealand.

Going back to Zihuatanejo, I think what some lament is the loss of travellers who have a genuine interest in learning about them and their local culture, and the arrival of mass-market vacationers who really don't care where they go, as long as it is sunny and cheap.

It's not practical to learn the language if all you are doing is going somewhere for short vacations, just to get out of the cold or whatever. But by not learning much if any of the language of wherever you go, you sure are missing out on a whole lot. And you would think that if you like a place enough to keep going back year after year, you might eventually want to start being able to connect with the people beyond a superficial level.

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It's not about how much Spanish or whatever language you do or do not know. What it's really about is making an effort to communicate with the people, and learning about them and their culture. Knowing the language greatly facilitates that. But you don't need a high level of ability to start doing that, you just need to get out there and start trying.

It's the difference between vacationing and travelling....

You're an interesting fellow Mr. Scott. I think I'd enjoy having a cerveza with you. You've worked on your head. And it shows....

Funny what you posted reminded me of my own domestic scenario. To date, though though I've been to Z. 6 times, most recently with our 19 year old daughter...my wife just isn't excited enough about the place to take the time off her job to come with me. It's just not her thing. As she says:

"But you've been to Mexico. you've done the beach thing. You're going because you want to eat tacos in the marketplace."

And she's exactly right. What interests her when she takes the effort to travel for pleasure is SEEING SOMETHING DIFFERENT EACH TIME. And I won't fault her for that.

But I'm just starting to understand Z., the culture, the language, the people, the food, the sea. And there's something about it, (amply assisted by my experiences on this board) that keeps me happy..even where I'm not there.

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Going to Zihua to eat tacos in the market sounds like a perfectly valid reason to go to me ;-) I'm craving tacos so badly right now, I haven't had a real taco since those ones I got in San Francisco last year. I walked an hour up mission street I think until I was satisfied I had found some of the most authentic tacos in town. And they were pretty damn authentic I must say, except that they were over-sized compared to what is typical in Michoacan&Guerrero. I guess they do that so they can charge more per taco, not 50 or 60 cents per taco like in Mexico. Last weekend I had dinner with my family and a guest who didn't know much about Mexico, and man did he learn all about Mexican cuisine. My mother had to tell me, "Scott, stop salivating at that picture of pozole or whatever it is you've been staring at on your computer for the last 5 minutes!"

I've never had real Mexican food in Canada, not like what you can get in the USA. But my aunt (from Morelia, now lives here) told me a couple of weeks ago that they apparently have authentic Mexican food down in a town called Leamington (ON), because of all the Mexican farm workers there. I've tried a couple places in Toronto, and here in London even, but it just isn't the same. It's all Tex-Mex around here. I'm kind of thinking about a trip to meet a friend from Mexico somewhere in the USA next month since she can't come here anymore without a lot of headache (Canada visa is harder than USA visa), and you can bet where I can get the best tacos is at the forefront of my considerations of where to go.

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I've never had real Mexican food in Canada, not like what you can get in the USA. But my aunt (from Morelia, now lives here) told me a couple of weeks ago that they apparently have authentic Mexican food down in a town called Leamington (ON), because of all the Mexican farm workers there.

I can relate to that. I almost never eat what passes for Mexicano grub up here, not just because it's a travesty of the taste, but it's an insult to my memory of the place.

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Aw cmon you guys. You sound like those food Nazis who would have us believe you can't get decent Italian food anywhere outside Italy, (except, of course, at Piazza d'Angelo in Zihua......according to Angelo), or decent Greek food anywhere out of Greece.
There's a little mobile food truck south of us, in Tonasket, WA, manned by a guy from Guadalajara, whose tacos are as "authentic" as any in Guad...or probably Zihua as well. There's a restaurant in Oroville, WA owned and operated by real live Mexicans, etc., etc. And these are small towns. Are you suggesting you can't get decent "authentic" Mexican food in places with huge Latino, (mostly Mexican) communities like Chicago and Los Angeles?

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Aw cmon you guys. You sound like those food Nazis who would have us believe you can't get decent Italian food anywhere outside Italy, (except, of course, at Piazza d'Angelo in Zihua......according to Angelo), or decent Greek food anywhere out of Greece.
There's a little mobile food truck south of us, in Tonasket, WA, manned by a guy from Guadalajara, whose tacos are as "authentic" as any in Guad...or probably Zihua as well. There's a restaurant in Oroville, WA owned and operated by real live Mexicans, etc., etc. And these are small towns. Are you suggesting you can't get decent "authentic" Mexican food in places with huge Latino, (mostly Mexican) communities like Chicago and Los Angeles?

Come to think of it we may have eaten at that place in Oroville. any years ago. Another memorable Mexifood experience for me was from a catering truck in beautiful Downtown, Santa Cruz, California. You got your chile releno in a purpose-made little paper wrapper. And the tacos de cabeza were succulent, to die for.

I think it WOULD be a good bet to eat at the restos that serve the field workers in small town USA. Truth be told I tend to like the simpler fare. Hearty food that isn't complicated. We're starting get some season agricultural workers up here on Vancouver Island, but they're flown here to work certain crops, like the daffodil harvest, and strawberries, which all ripen at once. There are new and expanded Mexican food sections in the larger grocery stores, so one can always hope.

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I just checked the Stats Can census table for my city. 2006 data. Out of a total population of 457,720 people, there are 785 people of Mexican ethnic origin. 0.17% of the population. Like I think I said already, there ain't very many Mexicans where I'm from. Certainly no Mexicans selling authentic tacos from street carts. It's too cold for them here I think. I don't blame them, either. Any Mexican selling tacos here, in proper restaurants, and there are a couple, really don't have much of a choice but to cater to the "Old El Paso" Tex-Mex tastes that most Canadians think of as Mexican food. They sell things like "fajitas" which are unknown to people in Morelia. In Morelia fajita refers to a cut of beef on the shelf at the grocery store. Chicken, sour cream, salsa casera, cheese, yeah right. They don't have a clue what fajitas are. Ergo, I don't consider that authentic Mexican food, although they may eat that stuff up in the northern border areas, I'm not sure about that. But not in Michoacan. They maybe sell it to tourists in Zihua, I don't know, but it's not typical food for the area.

Once when I flew to Morelia I took a couple packages of Old El Paso taco kits and packets of fajita seasoning to show some friends what "Mexican" food was like in Canada and elsewhere in the world. I remember they tried it, with scepticism, and basically I'd say they thought it was edible, but there was universal agreement that it wasn't Mexican food.

In Toronto, they don't even have mobile food trucks. The only street food allowed in Toronto is hot dogs, and all the vendors pretty much have the same menu - hot dog, italian saugage, polish sausage, that's it, a wiener of some type on a bun. When I've searched out real tacos in Toronto, I was disappointed. Even in a neighbourhood where I heard the neighbours playing Grupo Exterminador narco corridos as I ate, I still got what could only be described as a weak imitation. I mean, they served them on those rather gross processed corn tortillas that you can find some places. Not having fresh tortillas, that ruins everything right there. The least they could have done is made them from Maseca, which is available here now.

So, you can get real Mexican food in the USA because they have a ton of Mexicans there, but not here in Canada.

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I began learning Spanish years before I ever thought I would visit or live in a Spanish speaking country. I chose it over French or Latin because I believed it would be a more useful language to know on the American hemisphere for obvious reasons (which apparently go unnoticed by too many). My first visit to Zihuatanejo in '74 was after having only 3 or 4 years of grade school Spanish.

[humble] Apparently I paid attention in class [/humble]. :brilliant:

Like anything you learn, you must start simple but start somewhere, emphasis on "start". If it was easy for me to learn it's because I simply cared to learn it. Real effort is usually rewarded with real progress.

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I could have taken Spanish like you did - you are talking high school I presume - I wanted to take Spanish but my father said it would be useless in college and I ended up taking German. I was into astronomy and rockets then and maybe my dad pictured me working with Werner von Braun some day. Turned out I've never had a job where I need to speak a single word of German.

Craig

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No, not high school, which I never finished. I had my first Spanish class in the 3rd grade via television with "Señorita Robinson" and our book was "Camino Real", where I first saw photos of Mexican students in their uniforms and older men sitting under shade trees in a small town plaza with their guayaberas and wide-brimmed hats. I was automatically drawn to the culture. When I moved to Christiansted, St. Croix in '71 I again studied Spanish in the 8th grade and halfway through the 9th grade before high school and me went our separate ways. In '74 I got my first chance to practice my Spanish, and although it was rudimentary I persevered and was able to communicate well enough to have not just Mexican friends but a non-English speaking girlfriend who would become my wife 15 years later. :dance:

A new language isn't something foreign. It's mostly just new words for concepts you already know. I always looked at learning Spanish as learning to use a new "life tool", the same way I looked at the other skills I picked up over the years of my youth. B-)

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Even though you didn't finish high school you did resume your education and I gather from your posts, acquired a degree. How did that play out?

Craig

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High schools in Florida were a joke after studying at a private school in St. Croix where the teachers actually cared, though unfortunately I had a little "misunderstanding" with the headmaster and left halfway throught the 9th grade. A year later in Florida I was allowed to enroll a month or so late into the 10th grade, but it quickly became obvious that education was not the goal in Florida's overcrowded public high schools, so after a month or 2 after some BS incident off campus one morning that got me suspended for 10 days by an "ass't principal", I went to Negril for a couple of weeks and became a woodcarver when I returned. A year or so later we moved to Zihuatanejo for 6 months.

After returning to Florida my grandmother easily convinced me that I should go to college, though it took a year or so for me to get ready by taking a high school equivalency test (which due to a temporary change in the law I was allowed to take before my graduating class had actually graduated) after which I applied to a local junior college and got enough grants to make it through the first semester. However, times were tough and I had to stop studying to work for a few more years. Then, several years later while I was working in restaurants on Sanibel Island I decided I had had enough restaurant work, never again, so I enrolled in a community college in Ft. Myers and finished my AA degree. Then I went off to FSU at Tallahassee for a year, back to Sarasota for a semester where I attended USF's New College, then off to UF in Gainesville where I finished my studies and got my BA and where I maxed out all their Spanish classes just to keep me on my toes. I had planned on going to law school, but the more I learned about the trade the more it turned me off. It's tough having principles in a world where most folks are all too willing to sell theirs. ;-)

The rest is history!

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You've had an interesting life. More varied than most. How did you acquire dual citizenship? I thought when a person become a national of another country he had to give up his US citizenship.

Craig

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Not true Craig.My wife has dual Citizen ship....US and Canadian.

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Not sure what US law is, but in Canada there was a short period of 3 or 4 years in the mid-70's when acquiring citizenship in another country meant relinquishing Canadian citizenship. Since then, however, one does not lose Canadian citizenship.

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You've had an interesting life. More varied than most. How did you acquire dual citizenship? I thought when a person become a national of another country he had to give up his US citizenship.

:vivamexico: Man, I had a nice little message for George Bush all ready to accompany my US passport if I had to surrender it, but apparently US law changed the same year I was granted Mexican citizenship. I was mildly disappointed, but now I'm glad I got to have dual citizenship so that I could participate in the historic vote to elect Barack Obama and make all those rednecks and stiff-assed honkies nervous even though Bush had already put a definitive end to the myth of "white supremacy". :stirpot:

Of all the places I've lived, the group of us that has remained the closest (besides family) have been those of us who at one time or another lived in St. Croix. Shortly after I moved to Anna Maria Island, Florida from Christiansted, St. Croix and after leaving school, a friend of mine from St. Croix who had also just happened to move to the same island in Florida (lots of Crucians all over Florida!) gave me a job making handcarved wooden signs. I had worked with him a little on St. Croix helping to paint his handcarved signs. Another friend from St. Croix who still lives in Florida joined us soon after. We form a rather large private group on Facebook where we swap stories and photos, and where we have for the most part left an important historical record of this fascinating Caribbean island.
:brilliant:

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LOVE Carlos Santana..... so much rhythm, so much talent and so much fun to listen to...

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Hey "G",George Benson is no slouch either. B-)

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Santana, Abraxas, at the then new LA Forum, January 1970. I was 2nd row center.
Jose Feliciano was the warm-up.
Carlos was late. Jose Feliciano was boo-ed after 20 minutes or so.
I was late, gave birth to my daughter the next day. I was young. Very, very young. Great concert with many more great concerts in the LA area. Ahhh, those were the days.
I was a single mom of 2, for 17 years in SoCalifornia, working my ass off and never missed a good concert. Ahh yes, those were the days.
One nonstop struggle but fun fun fun. Oy!

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Some countries allow dual citizenship, some don't. The US does.

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when I've been in Quebec, most of the people where I went as a tourist reverted to English with me. Except for one jerkoff who pumped my gas and wouldn't tell us where the washrooms were, pretended he didn't understand "toilet", "toilettes", "washroom", "bathroom",

Yeah, well, there will probably ALWAYS be soreheads in Quebec who are very defensive about their language and culture years after the implementation of Bill 101 and will use every opportunity to bust your cojones. I'm going to take a guess that the fellow pumping gas was not a member of MENSA

Ou est la toilette? is fairly understandable in both official cdn. languages. No doubt he was jamming you for your English speech inflection.

I run into a bit of it too, but more often because I speak Parisian-type French rather than Joual .

I also try not to take it too personally when I speak to Z. locals in Spanish and get answered in English. Though occasionally I'll reply with something like:

Si mi espagnol es tan malo, pero, por favor habla me en espagnol..yo quero apprender un poco mas...

(Yeah, my Spanish isn't brilliant, but please speak to me in Spanish, I'd like to learn more of it)

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"I run into a bit of it too, but more often because I speak Parisian-type
French rather than Joual."

Then you'll appreciate my Polish story. Apologies if I've told it before:

In the late '70's I had a business trip to Poland, but decided to spend a few days in Paris on the way over. My Quebec-anglophone French served me well in Paris and I even tried picking up some of that beautiful local accent.

Upon arrival a week or so later in Warsaw, I was standing in the main square trying to locate a small theater which showed films on the Nazi occupation of Warsaw. Just then, a tour bus pulled to the curb in front of me and disgorged its load of tourists from France. (I could tell by their accents)

I approached the French tour guide and, in my best Parisian accent, asked:
"Pardon monsieur. Ou est-ce qu'on peut voire le film sur l'histoire the Warsovie?" (Excuse any spelling mistakes)

He took one look at me and replied: "Ah, vous etes Quebecois."

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He took one look at me and replied: "Ah, vous etes Quebecois."

Yeah that's pretty funny...

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Where is the discussion you're making reference to?

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The thread about Barra de Potosi...

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